Posts by Leolaia

Here is something interesting. The Testimonium Flavianum is the famous passage in Josephus that discusses Jesus. Immediately afterwards, Josephus bizarrely relates a totally unrelated story that is not only not about the Jews, nor set within the prefectship of Pontius Pilate, nor even set in Judea. So why is he even relating it? But interestingly this story DOES have resonance with one aspect of the story of Jesus in the synoptic gospels and Jewish tradition (specifically, the ben Pandera/Panthera tale): it concerns a woman who committed adultery believing she was having sex with a god:

"About the same time also another sad calamity put the Jews into disorder, and certain shameful practices happened about the temple of Isis that was at Rome. I will now first take notice of the wicked attempt about the temple of Isis, and will then give an account of the Jewish affairs. There was at Rome a woman whose name was Paulina; one who, on account of the dignity of her ancestors, and by the regular conduct of a virtuous life, had a great reputation: she was also very rich; and although she was of a beautiful countenance, and in that flower of her age wherein women are the most gay, yet did she lead a life of great modesty. She was married to Saturninus, one that was every way answerable to her in an excellent character. Decius Mundus fell in love with this woman, who was a man very high in the equestrian order; and as she was of too great dignity to be caught by presents, and had already rejected them, though they had been sent in great abundance, he was still more inflamed with love to her, insomuch that he promised to give her two hundred thousand Attic drachmae for one night's lodging; and when this would not prevail upon her, and he was not able to bear this misfortune in his amours, he thought it the best way to famish himself to death for want of food, on account of Paulina's sad refusal; and he determined with himself to die after such a manner, and he went on with his purpose accordingly. Now Mundus had a freed-woman, who had been made free by his father, whose name was Ide, one skillful in all sorts of mischief. This woman was very much grieved at the young man's resolution to kill himself, (for he did not conceal his intentions to destroy himself from others,) and came to him, and encouraged him by her discourse, and made him to hope, by some promises she gave him, that he might obtain a night's lodging with Paulina; and when he joyfully hearkened to her entreaty, she said she wanted no more than fifty thousand drachmae for the entrapping of the woman. So when she had encouraged the young man, and gotten as much money as she required, she did not take the same methods as had been taken before, because she perceived that the woman was by no means to be tempted by money; but as she knew that she was very much given to the worship of the goddess Isis, she devised the following stratagem: She went to some of Isis's priests, and upon the strongest assurances [of concealment], she persuaded them by words, but chiefly by the offer of money, of twenty-five thousand drachmae in hand, and as much more when the thing had taken effect; and told them the passion of the young man, and persuaded them to use all means possible to beguile the woman. So they were drawn in to promise so to do, by that large sum of gold they were to have. Accordingly, the oldest of them went immediately to Paulina; and upon his admittance, he desired to speak with her by herself. When that was granted him, he told her that he was sent by the god Anubis, who was fallen in love with her, and enjoined her to come to him. Upon this she took the message very kindly, and valued herself greatly upon this condescension of Anubis, and told her husband that she had a message sent her, and was to sup and lie with Anubis; so he agreed to her acceptance of the offer, as fully satisfied with the chastity of his wife. Accordingly, she went to the temple, and after she had supped there, and it was the hour to go to sleep, the priest shut the doors of the temple, when, in the holy part of it, the lights were also put out. Then did Mundus leap out, (for he was hidden therein,) and did not fail of enjoying her, who was at his service all the night long, as supposing he was the god; and when he was gone away, which was before those priests who knew nothing of this stratagem were stirring, Paulina came early to her husband, and told him how the god Anubis had appeared to her. Among her friends, also, she declared how great a value she put upon this favor, who partly disbelieved the thing, when they reflected on its nature, and partly were amazed at it, as having no pretense for not believing it, when they considered the modesty and the dignity of the person. But now, on the third day after what had been done, Mundus met Paulina, and said, "Nay, Paulina, thou hast saved me two hundred thousand drachmae, which sum thou sightest have added to thy own family; yet hast thou not failed to be at my service in the manner I invited thee. As for the reproaches thou hast laid upon Mundus, I value not the business of names; but I rejoice in the pleasure I reaped by what I did, while I took to myself the name of Anubis." When he had said this, he went his way. But now she began to come to the sense of the grossness of what she had done, and rent her garments, and told her husband of the horrid nature of this wicked contrivance, and prayed him not to neglect to assist her in this case. So he discovered the fact to the emperor; whereupon Tiberius inquired into the matter thoroughly by examining the priests about it, and ordered them to be crucified, as well as Ide, who was the occasion of their perdition, and who had contrived the whole matter, which was so injurious to the woman. He also demolished the temple of Isis, and gave order that her statue should be thrown into the river Tiber; while he only banished Mundus, but did no more to him, because he supposed that what crime he had committed was done out of the passion of love. And these were the circumstances which concerned the temple of Isis, and the injuries occasioned by her priests. I now return to the relation of what happened about this time to the Jews at Rome, as I formerly told you I would" (Antiquitates 18.3.4).

23

Sportin' the Sparlock

by blond-moment in

got mine..

Leolaia

Now that's what I'm talking about! So I guess the bug has been fixed? I should go and buy mine!

27

What biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?

by JWB in

what biblical support is there for the belief that a creative day is 7000 years long?.

as most folks here are probably well aware, the wts teaches that humankind has lived for about 6,000 years and that there will be a 1,000 year reign of christ to restore humans to perfection.

they teach that the end of 'this old system' must be coming very soon since everything must fit into a 7000 year 'creative day'.

Leolaia

Oh I definitely wasn't expressing personal beliefs, and I'm glad too you weren't either, because I know when personal convictions are involved, it can complicate things in a discussion. This is certainly one of the most interpreted portions of the Bible and so there are definitely some very strong opinions on interpretation among many readers. I was simply trying to lay out the reasons why I find the stated reading problematic compared to other alternatives.

39

Proof of the 75' incident

by iamwhoiam in

ok, am i correct in saying that the fds never stated armegedon was coming in 75'?

however, they led everyone to believe it was coming in 75'?.

if the latter question is true, can you provide links to talks or articles that point to this?

Leolaia

There was this circuit assembly talk:

And here are some choice quotes from that talk published in newspapers at the time:

"Some of the questions creating eager anticipation among the delegates are: Can there truly be a world conqueror? How? And what may the mid 1970s bring?" (Red Bluff Daily News, 9/11/1970, p. 5)
"Bible chronology and world events point to the mid-1970s as the possible time when all human preventers of peace on earth will be eliminated" (Tuscaloosa News, 10/17/1970, p. 2; Ruston Daily Leader, 1/22/1971, p. 4).
"All indications are that the conquest of the enemies of peace will take place within this generation. Bible chronology confirms this fact" (L'Avenir, 10/15/1970, p. 25; translated from French).
"All the evidence indicates that all enemies of peace will be vanquished within our generation. This is substantiated by Bible chronology" (The News, 11/12/1970, p. 6; this is obviously the same statement as the preceding quote).
"Men who know the trend of world affairs, and more importantly, the Bible itself, earmark the 70's. . . This is a decade of destiny and as Christian Witnesses of Jehovah, we can conquer the world as Jesus did by our faithfulness to God's Word, the Bible" (Burlington Times-News, 9/29/1970, p. 8B).
"Our lives are involved for then we will be either on the side of the conquerers or among the dead conquered ones. So who will conquer the world in the 1970s? You will if you by faith stick to God's Word and do His will now you will thus be rewarded with eternal peace in a new system of things on earth" (Chillicothe Constitution Times, 11/9/1970, p. 1)

16

The Athiest's book of Bible Stories (a flaw I noticed)

by outsmartthesystem in

kohath's generation 70 (35 female).

the population of children is now 175. half (88) are female.

the population of children is now 440. half (220) are female.

Leolaia

BTW, I forgot about Bilhah and Zilpah in my earlier post....so indeed, Leah and Rachel only gave birth to four boys each, not six. Eight kids is a far cry from the 30+ necessary to inflate the population in the subsequent two generations.

Also we have four generations through Aaron's paternal line (Levi -> Kohath -> Amram -> Aaron), but in fact there are only three in his maternal line (Levi -> Jochebed -> Aaron) if we take note of Numbers 26:59. That is another reason why Amram and Jochebed have to wait so long before having kids. That lengthy gap bridges the time needed for Jochebed to be the daughter of Levi as well as the mother of Aaron and Moses. This is another consideration that likely led to the division of the 430 years between Canaan and Egypt, as 430 years is just too long for three generational links.

Here are two of the chronographical schemes depicted in accordance with the Watchtower chronology of the sojourn (notice that the first scheme agrees with Genesis 46:6-11, the second does not):

16

The Athiest's book of Bible Stories (a flaw I noticed)

by outsmartthesystem in

kohath's generation 70 (35 female).

the population of children is now 175. half (88) are female.

the population of children is now 440. half (220) are female.

Leolaia

In an earlier thread, I laid out the progression of the idea that the sojourn lasted 215 years, a notion that isn't found in the OT but which is presumed a few times in the NT. The idea arose through the kind of chronographical speculation found in such Hellenistic-era works as Aramaic Levi, Demetrius, and in some of the Dead Sea Scrolls. The original biblical scenario in P designated a period of 360 years from the birth of Arphachshad to Abraham's 70th year (implicitly, when he left Haran to Canaan), then 360 years to the death of Joseph (in Joseph's 70th year in Egypt), and then a final 360 years of slavery until the Exodus. This plan was later abandoned in biblical interpretation, possibly because the span of 430 years (70 + 360) was too long for just four generations. Splitting up the 430 years as 215 in Canaan and 215 in Egypt destroyed the chronographical scheme of P but gave a more reasonable space of time for four generations.

However in order for the Israelites to become numerous, they would have to have children at younger ages than their patriarchical forbears. So in 4Q559, we read: "Abraham was 99 years old when he fathered Isaac, Isaac was 60 years old when he fathered Jacob. Jacob was 65 years old when he fathered Levi. He gave to Levi the book of the words of Enoch to preserve and pass on to his own descendants. Levi was 35 years old when he fathered Kohath. Kohath was 29 when he fathered Amram. Amram was 110 when he fathered Aaron (2:3-10)". Levi and Kohath were relatively young when they fathered the next generation, respectively, but notice that Amram was very old by the time he got around to having kids. The scheme in Demetrius is somewhat similar: "When Kohath was 40 years old he begat Amram who was 14 years old when Joseph died in Egypt at the age of 110; and Kohath was 133 years old when he died. Amram took as his wife his uncle's daughter Jochebed and when he was 75 years old he begat Aaron. But when he begat Moses Amram was 78 years old, and Amram was 136 years old when he died" (Fragment 2). And here is the scenario in Aramaic Levi: (1) Levi became father to Kohath when he was 34 years old, then Levi entered Egypt when he was 48 and lived another 89 years in Egypt before he died. (2) Kohath became father to Amram when he was 30, and then (3) Amram married Jochebed when both were 30 as well (when Levi was 94 years old), about 24 years before the death of Joseph. Then after getting married at age 30 (both Amram and Jochebed were born on the same day), they would have waited some 80 years before they started having children, firstly Aaron. This is a contrivance: the chronographers had only four generations to work with, they wanted to have the first three generations having children at young ages, but that meant that they would have to delay the last generation in order to reach the desired 215 years (as there were no other generational links to fill up the time in between).

17

Does MAGIC exist or doesnt it? Sick of crap from WT

by hamsterbait in

magic as a "force" has been debunked.

no sane person believes it is real.

(except of course jehoobie - and it makes him real sad an' mean mad!).

Leolaia

So the Society thinks they aren't superstitious?

*** w87 11/1 p. 7 True Religion Dispels Fear — How? ***
Just as the tropical morning sun evaporates the heavy dew of the rain forest, the light of Bible truth dispels all superstitious fear.

Yeah. Right.

*** w66 12/15 pp. 742-743 Repelling the Attack of Wicked Spirits ***

It would have been exceedingly dangerous to keep such works on how to perform the magical arts; in fact, to keep any appendage of demonism is perilous. One must be absolutely free of any relics of spiritism, so as to allow the demons no beachhead.

A vital question to ask if one experiences trouble with the demons is: Have you accepted any gifts from relatives or persons who dabble in spiritism? Any kind of article from such a person can cause trouble. In some actual cases it has been a radio, a sewing machine, a pair of shoes, jewelry, a “good luck” charm, a bathrobe, a blanket, a book. One woman had her bed tipped up at night when she tried to sleep on a mattress given her by her Spiritualist mother. A young woman had a fever of 106 degrees when wearing a garment given her by a Spiritualist. Another Christian woman kept a handbag given her by an aunt who was a fortune-teller. Using the handbag in the ministry, she experienced powerful thoughts of “Go home!” Bad thoughts rushed into her mind almost audibly, all of them anti-kingdom. She could not understand herself, as these negative thoughts entered her mind as if by telephone, so that she complained of “hearing herself think.” Only after getting rid of the handbag did she get relief.

Sometimes keeping a letter from a spiritistic relative has brought trouble. Some persons have reported gaining relief by burning letters from relatives who dabble in spiritism. Even if an article from a spiritist is an expensive one, is keeping it worth the danger? One woman was tormented for years by the demons; finally she got rid of many household effects that came from a spiritistic relative. “The material loss,” she wrote, “was worth the peaceful calm that came over our house and family.” That objects from spiritists are implicated is clearly evident because relief almost invariably follows getting rid of them. The principle is similar to that used in sorcery, in which the demonist wishing to cast a spell will transfer an object into the possession of the intended victim.

However, sometimes objects through which demons make contact resist burning, indicating demonic anger at efforts to destroy them. Some persons have found it difficult to burn up ouija boards or books on occultism. Others have reported experiences similar to that of the woman who had much distress at home after wearing a dress originally belonging to a witch. Learning of the source of trouble, she set out to burn it. “We poured gasoline on it, so it would burn quickly; but what amazed us very much was the fact that the dress did not want to burn.” Persist in your efforts to get rid of suspicious objects and relief in some measure usually follows.

*** yb70 p. 159 Country Reports (Part One) ***Getting out of Babylon the Great presented no problem for her. However, one problem had to be overcome. Due to her previous associations, she still dressed in the same manner as her former friends. She especially liked to wear minidresses. When the seventh chapter in the Truth book was studied, she quickly realized that the demons not only sought sensual lusts before the Flood, but that they are still the instigators of sensual lusts, and anyone who dressed as she did could well be a target for the demons. As a result, this young girl sat down at the sewing machine and let out all of her hems. Now she dresses appropriately.

*** g70 6/8 p. 7 Be Alert to Dangers of Spiritism ***

Recently a young couple who had been subject to harassment by demons began studying the Bible with Jehovah’s witnesses. The lady of the home was accustomed to hearing noises and seeing figures in the house. When the Bible study would begin, a small bell would be heard ringing. Then the sound would grow louder and louder until it was impossible to study. Since the family had a history of association with spiritism, it was suggested that a search be made for objects through which the demons might gain entrance to the home. Even though this was done, the harassment continued.

Then one day the husband noticed that his wife had a chain around her neck to which was attached a wedding ring that had belonged to her grandmother, who had been a spiritist. So they got into their car and drove down to the water’s edge, and soon out over the water sailed the ring. What a surprise they both had at that moment! For as the ring left the thrower’s hand a voice was heard crying, “Ah . . . aah . . . a-a-a-h” until finally the ring hit the water and there was silence.

Now there is peace in the home of this couple. They can study the Bible and attend Christian meetings, and all is tranquil.

*** kl chap. 12 pp. 114-115 par. 14 Resist Wicked Spirit Forces ***

Even if you have not practiced spiritism, get rid of anything having spiritistic uses or overtones. This includes books, magazines, videos, posters, musical recordings, and objects used for spiritistic purposes. ... To illustrate: A married couple in Thailand had long been harassed by demons. Then they got rid of objects associated with spiritism. What was the result? They were relieved of the demonic attacks and thereafter made real spiritual progress.

Yeah, no superstitious fear here.