The whole salvation by works scenario that the WTS teaches requires is pathetic, but admittedly functional in a worldly sense. It's lure is easily explained because salvation by faith - your personal relationship with Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - puts 'em out of business. As a christian I fully understand that nothing I do or even could do saves me, it's what God does in and through me that saves me. I'm saved because I believe and trust His promises. The same Spirit of God that exposed the WTS to me is the same spirit that showed me they were NOT a good representative...certainly not faithful or discreet. But no credit is due me, all good and perfect things are from Him, especially the truth.
Posts by Gig
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34My Disfellowshipped Window Washer Is Going Back To Meetings Because Of The
by minimus inwar....he said bible prophecies are obviously being fulfilled and since war is imminent, it's time to get back into the "truth".
he went to his first meeting last sunday.
now, all he says he has to do is stop smoking, stop his pornography addiction, stop going out with prostitutes, start reading and researching more, and evidently, he has stopped engaging in homosexuality.
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Gig
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Progressive (fill in the blank)
by Gig init seems the wts makes frequent use of the concept of -and even the word- "progressive".
everything except the claimed "appointment" as the fds is progressively enlightened and progressively revealed.
not surprisingly the positive spin is maintained while progressively changing (don't forget willingly) no matter the previous point of (required) view.
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Gig
It seems the WTS makes frequent use of the concept of -and even the word- "progressive". Everything except the claimed "appointment" as the FDS is progressively enlightened and progressively revealed. Not surprisingly the positive spin is maintained while progressively changing (don't forget willingly) no matter the previous point of (required) view. Abandoning and even reversing doctrine is actually a good thing. I consider it a sure and right step for two reasons: 1) It's plain as day evidence that they were wrong (stupid) in the first place. That the "one and only" was true in the sense that they were exclusively in error. So the average witness has more opportunity to realize they were following imperfect men instead of the true Spirit of God and His Word. How the WTS words these reversals or that they simply rely on witness forgetfulness or them as the target for blame is certainly infuriating, but 2) the WTS is forced to do the right thing and "correct" their teaching. Very satisfying both.
My question is with regard to the hierarchy within the WTS. I understand it starts with publisher, ministerial servant, elder, then I can't remember how the presiding, district, ciricuit, and zone overseers rank. Can anyone straighten the list out for me and tell me a little about how they interact. Are there consequences to going over their heads? I've heard the stories about elder abuse of authority but are they all basically brothers on their level and respect the higher positions without exception? How does the system work? Progressively?
Gig
Edited to add: I know they consider themselves above the Holy Spirit and on the same level as Jesus...it sometimes surprises me they don't get discontent with the "mother" title...so please don't exasperate me by describing the top of the pyramid. Pun definately intended.
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Apostate?
by Gig ini know the wts calls anyone who leaves an apostate.
but can that label be pinned on someone who has never been a jw?
i also know the wts can do pretty much anything they want, but according to their "official policy" can i be considered an apostate after only having studied with them for a time -never baptised into the org - but found their teachings to be less than the truth and said so?
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Gig
I know the WTS calls anyone who leaves an apostate. But can that label be pinned on someone who has never been a JW? I also know the WTS can do pretty much anything they want, but according to their "official policy" can I be considered an apostate after only having studied with them for a time -never baptised into the org - but found their teachings to be less than the truth and said so?
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Witness memory
by Descender inhave any of you had a similar occurrence when you were a witness as this?
i was 18 years old and had taken a trip with my witness buddies to new york.
one of them had been drafted into bethel and we decided to go along to tour the place and visit new york and patterson.
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Gig
Your friend didn't learn very well from the people who still haven't learned. Yes the WTS limits the age of creation but your friend is thinking only of Adam's assumed age. It's such nonsense it's not worth explaining any further. The fact that the WTS has an answer for everything already indicates how stupid they are, the only thing they have exactly right is that there does exist false religion...wait, no...their teachings on that are wrong too - they think that means everybody else but them. Yes, they believe there is a God, but the Bible says "Good! Even the demons believe that."
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The easiest to prove?
by Gig inwhat would you say is the most obvious lie the wts taught?
i'm thinking of the simplest and shortest to read and explain, and one that leaves no doubt as to the deception and dishonesty was on purpose...obviously intentional.. one example is where they changed the dimensions of the pyramid to fit their chronological math.
from one edition of their book to the next printing, on the very same page and very same language, but with different numbers.
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Gig
Yes, lies, but argueably not intentional. I mean, they really do believe the end is coming SOON, and have believed it for over a century. That's not the purposeful lie I was looking for. Frank, your examples too were beliefs at the time, and as stupid as they were it wasn't intentional at the time of print.
I KNOW the WTS was aware that they were being dishonest when they changed the pyramid dimensions and I KNOW they long ago figured out 607 isn't true...yet they did it (and still do it) anyway. If they do it consciously it no longer can be considered a mistake. Get me?
Thanks anyway though, I always enjoy your posts. Anybody else?
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The easiest to prove?
by Gig inwhat would you say is the most obvious lie the wts taught?
i'm thinking of the simplest and shortest to read and explain, and one that leaves no doubt as to the deception and dishonesty was on purpose...obviously intentional.. one example is where they changed the dimensions of the pyramid to fit their chronological math.
from one edition of their book to the next printing, on the very same page and very same language, but with different numbers.
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Gig
What would you say is the most obvious lie the WTS taught? I'm thinking of the simplest and shortest to read and explain, and one that leaves no doubt as to the deception and dishonesty was on purpose...obviously intentional.
One example is where they changed the dimensions of the pyramid to fit their chronological math. From one edition of their book to the next printing, on the very same page and very same language, but with different numbers.
I just keep remembering the WTS own teaching that "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true." The average witness, nay...all witnesses aren't going to sit through any conversation that requires any effort on their part to figure out the WTS is lying. I can get the example above across to them before they have a chance to shut down, it's just that obvious. They may not discuss it but I know they heard me, I need more of these. Please take a minute and think about it.
Here's another good one, I can always get their attention with FDS and 1914 talk, going over some matter of fact quotes naming 607. And then I ask them to give me just one single person who agrees with 607 outside the WTS. I've been digging as if for hidden treasure and I can offer them as many as they want, hundreds of scholars, experts, historians, etc, naming 586/7 and all I ask for is one. Obviously they won't do it, they can't, but I continually urge them on saying it's right at the heart of their religion, this is where their authority as the FDS comes from. I NEED the truth and their whole purpose is to help me find it.
Oh yeah, "...Jesus said...the Bible's promise...the testimony of the prophets...Jesus assured us...the loving purpose of Jehovah God...Jehovah's prophetic word...the Creator's promise..." Umm, not.
Gig
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More than a mistake: facts and fun
by Gig ina frequent destination for jw's when confronted with some wt history is the safe haven of "yes, we made some mistakes, but we were willing to change.
" of course for them this puts a nice and satisfying postive spin on a conversation going the wrong way: how admirably humble.
the simple question in response would be "if you say the end of the world will come on this date, and it doesn't, how willing do you have to be to change?
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Gig
A frequent destination for JW's when confronted with some WT history is the safe haven of "yes, we made some mistakes, but we were WILLING to change." Of course for them this puts a nice and satisfying postive spin on a conversation going the wrong way: How admirably humble. The simple question in response would be "if you say the end of the world will come on this date, and it doesn't, how WILLING do you have to be to change?" But clearly everyone makes mistakes...
...so, what is it about the WTS that goes beyond a simple mistake...however well-intentioned or purely motivated? I gladly offer two examples:
1. Mistakes are fine until you insist on repeating them. 1975 was the fourth try at the 6000 year thing. They were wrong once, ok whatever...twice, that probably shouldn't have happened...three, please stop it already, this is God we're talking about...four, alright that's it, you're wrong, it isn't a mistake anymore...it's an obsession and your wonderful willingness clearly is taking new shape. And you still haven't learned "to quit fixing dates" you arrogant hypocritical liar. Hey, I didn't say anything the first three times, so you brought it on yourself. Don't threaten my relationship with my family, friends, and God anymore...you're not qualified. What do you think Deuteronomy means? "Do not be afraid of them."
2. It isn't a mistake if it's deliberate. It's more than that when the WTS purposely and conscientiously deceives. I can say with certainty that a several thousand year old pile of Egyptian rock, however well crafted, did not change in size over the few years the WTS was watching...no, the WTS plainly chose to alter the truth so as to make their chronological numbers work. Need another just to be sure? How about ''75 again..."we never said that". Um, yes you did...many times. What else would explain the huge losses in membership? They were faithful and believed you, but you lied to them and they had no choice...to love and follow the truth they left, and rightfully so. Turns out is was you, the WTS who was guilty of apostasy, you left God's word and will and required others to follow. And yet you still claim you are the only one that can hear and understand the Almighty? No, not a mistake, it's more than that. It's just like the Bible says: "...evil men and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived."
One last plea...stop the blasphemy! You said...
"Jesus' own promise...according to the testimony of the prophets...Jesus assured us...the Bible's promise...Jesus said...the Creator's promise... Jehovah's prophetic word..."
...all relating to teachings that would now get a faithful witness literally thrown overboard from your so-called spiritual ark. You're supposed to hunger for the truth, instead you've gotten power hungry. And don't you dare accuse me either! What's that? "Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that..." Hey, watch yourself pal, I love the truth but I'm not trying to take credit for it, that was you...here are a hundred quotes, I'm not teaching anything. Jesus told us HE was the truth, remember? The way and the life too, and he admitted that he didn't even know the day or the hour. Whyzat so hard? You make me tired.
Gig
You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose. Come to think of it, you can't even pick your friends. How sad.
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The power of an apology
by Gig ini regret that because i don't have my copy of crisis of conscience here i can't complete this post, but someone with a copy please assist me...ray quoted an apology from the worldwide church of god after the passing of their "leader" herbert armstrong.
it really struck me as courageous, responsible, and ever so appropriate given that herb's teachings often were the same in nature as the wts's.
if memory serves it's on page 271 or 272, if not you'll find only one reference to the worldwide church of god in the index.
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Gig
THANKS NATHAN
Millions now living may never see anything like that from the WTS.
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Millions now living may NEVER...
by Gig in...may never see anything like this from the wts.
thank you nathan for completing my previous thread: the power of an apology.
i dunno how to link it but its well worth a read..
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Gig
...may never see anything like this from the WTS. Thank you Nathan for completing my previous thread: The power of an apology. I dunno how to link it but its well worth a read.
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The power of an apology
by Gig ini regret that because i don't have my copy of crisis of conscience here i can't complete this post, but someone with a copy please assist me...ray quoted an apology from the worldwide church of god after the passing of their "leader" herbert armstrong.
it really struck me as courageous, responsible, and ever so appropriate given that herb's teachings often were the same in nature as the wts's.
if memory serves it's on page 271 or 272, if not you'll find only one reference to the worldwide church of god in the index.
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Gig
I regret that because I don't have my copy of Crisis of Conscience here I can't complete this post, but someone with a copy please assist me...Ray quoted an apology from the Worldwide Church of God after the passing of their "leader" Herbert Armstrong. It really struck me as courageous, responsible, and ever so appropriate given that Herb's teachings often were the same in nature as the WTS's.
If memory serves it's on page 271 or 272, if not you'll find only one reference to the Worldwide Church of God in the index. Someone please post that public statement here for everyone to see how a conscience comes rightly forward. It's purely sad to imagine that the WTS may never do any such thing.