I spoke to him a few times on the phone when he lived in Montreal. He struck me as more Bible-oriented than the average elder but still very much under the illusion that God has an organization and that the WTS is it. Young as he was, I got the impression that he thought of himself as God's gift to the organization to "kindly" keep everybody else on the straight and narrow path. Herk
Posts by herk
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19
My trip to the Bethel library....
by logansrun intowards the middle of my eighteen-month critical investigation of the jws and the bible i decided to pay a visit to my sister and brother-in-law at the patterson bethel complex in new york.
perhaps it was a last-ditch effort to salvage whatever faith i had in the organization, or maybe it was the realization that i would not be able to see my sister under semi-normal conditions again if i left; i don't know.
of course, the trip did not save my crumbling faith.
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herk
Here's my two-cents-worth that I hope provides some clarification here.
No joke -- there are HUNDREDS of books by servants of Satan at Bethel.
The headquarters staff of many other religious organizations have access to the writings of other religions and of persons and organizations that oppose what they stand for. I've been to the largest 7th Day Adventist library, for example, and I saw more books about JWs than I ever saw during the 40 years that I had access to the library at Brooklyn Bethel. The libraries at Bethel and Gilead are barren and drab by comparison. I can say the same thing about my visits to Union Theological Seminary. Though not a religious library, the New York Times library has practically every book you will find at Bethel. The Times keeps such books on hand simply for reference. And in fairness, I have to say that I believe that is the main purpose of having "books by servants of Satan at Bethel."
I was shocked to see some of the titles available to the casual reader.
I think it would be an extremely rare event to see a "Bethelite" or "Gileadite" perusing a book in the headquarters libraries that was taboo in JW congregations. For one thing, the headquarters staff is kept so busy and is expected to be ahead of everybody else in what the Society's publications have to say that they lack the time and energy to spend with other literature. More importantly, most persons at Bethel wouldn't want to be caught dead with "apostate" literature in their hands, even in the Society's libraries, due to the watchful eyes of others who might turn them in or give them critical "counsel" on the spot. A career at Bethel hinges on daily keeping up the pretense that you're completely loyal and would never do anything to jeopardize your "privileged position" within the organization. That is not to say, however, that such books were not consulted by members of the writing and legal staffs and some others with "special" assignments.
Referring the WT writers' ffequent recourse to their collection of Christendom's commentaries and reference works, Karl Klein once deplored it as ``sucking at the teats of Babylon the Great."
"Deplored" isn't the right word since it suggests regret, and Karl made as much use of such commentaries as any other WT writers. Knowing him as I did, I'm sure he made the statement only to convey the false impression that he himself used such works to a lesser degree than others on the writing staff.
there was a library under lock and key. I wonder now what kind of books exist in there. Are there books of demonizm, occult, astrology and the like??.
The "library under lock and key" is available only to certain persons because, for the most part, the items could become unusable by frequent handling. Some of the paper has become brownish with exposure to time, and the pages crack easily. Most of it is stuff from Russell's day, including publications of others in the Adventist movement of the time.
Why didn't the apostacy occur along time ago, why in the 80's. What was the one thing that started it all?
In a nutshell, "the apostacy" began when Bethelites were assigned to contribute articles for a Bible dictionary the Society was planning to release. They were encouraged to consult reference works in the Bethel library and elsewhere that would support what they wrote. The "dictionary" eventually became the Aid to Bible Understanding volume. Much of what they prepared was actually not used since most Bethelites have little experience as writers (or they really didn't have the time to do justice to such an assignment.) But the research opened the eyes of some Bethelites to the fact that there is far more in the Bible than the Society had ever dealt with.
Do the witnesses behind those doors are they the things Ezikiel saw as the unclean things in the temple.
My opinion is that the people at Bethel, including the members of the governing body, are blind but not deliberately evil. They daily live under the same delusions, misconceptions and hallucinations that afflict the rank and file. In some cases, they possess more authority than the average JW, but most members of Bethel and Gilead sincerely, though blindly, believe they're doing the will of God.
I remember visiting Bethel and the Farm and thinking the workers there looked at us like inmates in a prison look at us when we tour or visit. Very eery. I did NOT get a warm and fuzzy feeling from visiting Bethel.
Many (most?) Bethelites have a feeling of superiority over others in the organization. Most JWs can only dream of "the wonderful privilege" of having a friendship with leading members of the Society or at least being in their company day-after-day. If they "qualify," male Bethelites are often given first choice in many rare "privileges" such as speaking at conventions, etc. That kind of life can and often does inflate a Bethelite's ego. But the institutional life at Bethel is not normal living, and many a Bethelite really wishes he or she could have some of the warm relationships that seem to exist among JWs on the outside. Some (perhaps most) Bethel women suffer from the frustration of wanting both "full-time service" AND a normal family life with children.
I always likened Bethel to the movie 1984 with John Hurt. Mindless people running around in halls, information spewing out of monitors telling of the increase in publishers, magazines printed, baptized ones and chocolate rations increasing! Then their was the fight for leftovers a milisecond after the word Amen was uttered by the wives on tupperware patrol.
GMFH, you know how to tell it like it is. I also have "fond memories" of the following:
I use to love going to the hoppers and check out the crap donated by the brothers! Polyster pants and wooly pants ruled the clothing hopper! Could get better stuff at a fire sale.
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Comments You Won't Hear at the 12-7-03 WT Study
by blondie inwt quotes will be in
it is under the guise of making them feel wanted but it is more likely a passive-aggressive means to show women what their place is and to stay there.. .
fear of god impelled two women to defy a pharaoh.
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herk
I think a word ought to be said, too, about how damaging the WT teaching is to the decent men in the organization. Over the years I was associated with countless men who were worn to a frazzle by the Society's requirement that they "exercise headship." They had demanding secular jobs and had to do their part in taking the lead in the family, in field service, in the congregation and at conventions. They were often away from their wives and families due to regular elders' meetings, meetings with the circuit and district overseers, committee hearings, Kingdom Ministry School and other special sessions. They were usually busy every week spending far more time than others in preparation for public talks and other meetings. They also had paper work to do in connection with their elder or ministerial servant positions. To fall behind in meeting any of these requirements led to criticism from others, not only from other elders, including the circuit overseer, but even from some women in the congregation as well, including their own wives in many cases. Wives generally tried to be understanding and made huge allowances. Many I've known were outstanding helpers of their husbands. Some men were great leaders mainly because of the initiative, brilliance and industriousness of their wives. Still, many wives would become exasperated because their husbands were "not taking the lead in the family," especially in conducting a "family Bible study," as they were so often reminded to do by the Society. Whether wives complained or not, husbands felt the heat when their own consciences condemned them for not doing enough. There is a lot of glory connected to being an elder or leader among JWs, but there is a huge price to pay in frustration, drained energy, health breakdowns, and sometimes in getting household bills paid on time.
Then there were those men who were not serving as elders or ministerial servants. Some I knew were honest with themselves and felt inadequate for dealing with all the pressures they saw other men enduring. But they felt the cruel brunt of hints that they were not real men or that they were lazy or selfish. I knew some such men who had wives who were called "suffering sisters," wives who seemed to suffer shame because they had husbands who were weak or who were not willing to do their full share with other men in the congregation.
JW society demands that its men do everything they can to please everybody, something that simply can't be done. I, for one, am grateful to be free of that incessantly crazy treadmill.
Herk
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JW suspect in triple murder
by DevonMcBride inhttp://www.wftv.com/news/2684618/detail.html
police name suspect in triple murder
posted: 6:40 a.m. est december 5, 2003
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herk
Thanks, Grits.
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JW suspect in triple murder
by DevonMcBride inhttp://www.wftv.com/news/2684618/detail.html
police name suspect in triple murder
posted: 6:40 a.m. est december 5, 2003
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herk
Hi growedup,
I sure wish they would have expounded on what the "twisted motive" may be! Any ideas?!
I just read the following in an Orlando newspaper:
Carrasquillo's grandmother, Natividad Ortiz, said in a phone interview in Spanish from her home in Puerto Rico that two months ago Carrasquillo told her and his mother that he had "made a pact with the devil and had to sacrifice a human being."
Herk
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32
JW suspect in triple murder
by DevonMcBride inhttp://www.wftv.com/news/2684618/detail.html
police name suspect in triple murder
posted: 6:40 a.m. est december 5, 2003
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herk
growedup -
The sentence that's partially covered by the picture says the following in full:
"The man they have in custody is not officially a suspect, but family members have mentioned him as a man who may have a twisted motive for these murders."
Herk
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JW suspect in triple murder
by DevonMcBride inhttp://www.wftv.com/news/2684618/detail.html
police name suspect in triple murder
posted: 6:40 a.m. est december 5, 2003
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herk
The TV news item shows that others share some blame in this tragedy. The police, of course, do their best to round up those who cause trouble, but the courts often don't back them up and they let trouble-makers go free. I doubt I could sleep if I were the "one church member [who] once overheard Carresquillo talking about buying a gun and killing some Witnesses." Did he or she report this to the elders? To anybody?
Herk
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32
JW suspect in triple murder
by DevonMcBride inhttp://www.wftv.com/news/2684618/detail.html
police name suspect in triple murder
posted: 6:40 a.m. est december 5, 2003
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herk
HCM -
I'm not proud of my past as a JW. I lived in awe and fear of elders who had authority above mine. That is what was expected of me, and I complied, believing I was in this way showing obedience to God. I did what the organization instructed its people to do at the time, and I went to the elders. It would have been viewed as stepping out of line to go above them and especially to turn to some "worldly" agency. The demand on me to continue going through life living in such submissiveness to men lacking in knowledge of the fundamentals of life is part of the reason I left JWs.
Herk
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JW suspect in triple murder
by DevonMcBride inhttp://www.wftv.com/news/2684618/detail.html
police name suspect in triple murder
posted: 6:40 a.m. est december 5, 2003
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herk
growedup -
You are absolutely right. I was probably being over-generous by attributing the elders' lack of proper action to naivety. The far bigger and more important reason for their failure is their irrational fear of "bringing reproach on the organization."
amac -
I don't see you as being genuinely fair in your view of those who are ready to blame the elders and the Society. You should realize that your experience with your father is unique. He is not a typical JW elder. I've been a member of many congregations, some in the U.S. and some abroad. I was also a member of the Society's headquarters staff for many years. JW elders are totally unequipped to handle mental and emotional and medical problems, yet they think nothing of stepping in and assuring the members of their congregations that they are qualified. Your error is in being too generous in your assessment of the Society and its elders. Even the members of the governing body are woefully handicapped when it comes to dealing on a personal level with people who have serious problems. Their students are no better than their teachers.
Herk
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JW suspect in triple murder
by DevonMcBride inhttp://www.wftv.com/news/2684618/detail.html
police name suspect in triple murder
posted: 6:40 a.m. est december 5, 2003
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herk
Amac,
I don't know you, and I don't know whether or not you ever were a JW or for how long, if you were. But I don't think you understand how JWs operate when dealing with people who have special problems.
I was nearly murdered by the son of a JW woman. He had mental problems and occasionally became violent. But one of the elders discovered that the man became calm when the Bible was read to him, and so the elders decided that they could deal with the man's problems without having to call the police or any other authorities who had the qualifications for handling such a person.
One weekend when his mother was ill, another JW and I stopped by to see her. The son greeted us with a smile and then disappeared into another room. Moments later, he came storming out of the room in a rage and even appeared to be foaming at the mouth. He started battering me and stopped only after his mother repeatedly ordered him to. For a while I thought I was a gonner since he came at me like a battering ram. I had bruises for more than a week due to that incident.
Why didn't his mother report him to the proper authorities? Her reason was that the elders said they had everything under control and that they were making good progress in helping him.
In another congregation, the elders refused to report a man who often threatened his JW wife with a gun. One day he pulled the gun on another JW and me, and we were almost certain he was going to pull the trigger. Fortunately for us, we were able to convince him that we simply wanted to be good neighbors and were hoping the family was doing well. But the elders knew about this man's behavior, and they did nothing more than try to console the wife by telling her that her husband would be okay as long as she did her best to live like a Christian woman. But this woman was deathly afraid of her husband. She was finally helped when an organization for battered women heard about her situation.
JWs often do take upon themselves responsibilities that belong to others and where they have no business butting in. I nearly lost my life twice because they're generally so naive about human nature.
Herk