Posts by adamah

20

The Paradox of Using Miracles to Explain the Bible Accounts

by Comatose in

i've been thinking about this for a week or so.

ill try to lay it out as clearly as possible without getting to long winded and id like to hear your thoughts.. .

i know the biblical account of the flood has been discussed ad nauseum.

adamah

Comatose said-

I agree with most of everything you post Adam. :) Wish I knew you and we could get together to chat.

Thanks for saying so! :)

The fact is, there's very few people who are interested in engaging in a critical (i.e. non-devotional) analysis of the Bible and the stories inside, so the internet allows people to reach out to others to discuss what is really a niche topic. Of course, I don't claim to be an expert, just someone who really enjoys learning about the history of the mortal men who wrote the Bible. It's obviously effected so many people's lives, and will continue to do so for as long as I can tell. I mean, Christianity has survived 2,000 yrs and grown, DESPITE the apocalyptic claims being made as occurring in Jesus' life-time. A lie seemingly gets more resiliant with age.

In fact, sometimes I'll ask a believer if there were ANY EVIDENCE that they could be presented with that would PROVE that God didn't exist, that Jesus wasn't the son of God, etc. If they're a firm believer, they'll honestly admit NO. The reason is its not about reason, or honesty, or a search for truth above all else; instead, people value different things in their life, and are often comfortable with what they know, but worse, are deathly afraid of the ramifications of stating to others that they ARE agnostic/atheist. It doesn't even MATTER what they believe, since they've made that decision (or in the case of born-ins with extensive family ties, it's essentially been made FOR them). So they go through the motions, and just try not to think about it to deeply, since in essence, the cost of stating that they see reality and examining the evidence is just simply too high for them.

That's what bothers me a bit about Reza Aslan's high-minded attitude about religious beliefs: for many, YES, they understand that their religious beliefs are not really "real" and they aren't going to die for their religion. However, for a few others, they DO read Torah/Quran/Bible as literal TRUTHS, and WILL kill and/or DIE for it. For those in society who struggle with discerning fantasy from reality (eg those with schizophrenia/bipolar), it's toxic to expose them to these ideas, since no one is able to tell them it's not "really real" and it potentially induces an amazing amount of stress into their lives, and DOESN'T become a shelter when they fixate on the horrorable images depicted in the Bible.

I dunno, maybe it's evolution in action, filtering out those who can be easily persuaded to take wooden nickels.

My problem is saying that a miracle happened by means of non-miraculous events. Seems so paradoxical. The flood in itself was a miracle, not a natural phenomenon. But, then they go back and try to reverse engineer scientific reasons to support the flood. Silliness.

Yeah, I assume you're referring to the 'Answers in Genesis' types, seemingly looking to act like they DON'T believe in myths and trying to use cherry-picked evidence to justify their beliefs in tall tales (Paul Bunyan). I suspect many are doing it, just to give ammunition to those in the flock who aren't familiar with science themselves, but are looking for scientists to validate their beliefs, regardless of how shaky their reputation may be (eg Kent Hovind, Ken Ham, etc). Ear ticklers, all of them.

Many more-educated believers will just choose to compartmentalize their beliefs, relying on two sets of "facts" where they use one set on Sunday in church (for religion), and another set they use in their career (for science). They know the conflicts can't be resolved, so they don't even try.

Also, if there was a water canopy blocking out enough sunlight that a rainbow had never before been possible, then that means they couldn't see the stars or moon I guess. But, god made the moon as a luminary for the night... Can you see the moon on a cloudy night?

The Hebrew (Biblical) view of cosmology is well-known to us, based on Babylonian/Egyptian/Sumerian concepts of the World, and as recorded in the Torah (and confirmed by discussions by rabbis in various Midrashim, circa 200CE). They conceived of their Universe existing in this type of set-up, with the Sun, Moon and stars attached as if track lights to a solid half-dome firmament:

And to think people who didn't believe it were killed, eg Giordano Bruno. Crazy stuff, indeed.

Adam

20

The Paradox of Using Miracles to Explain the Bible Accounts

by Comatose in

i've been thinking about this for a week or so.

ill try to lay it out as clearly as possible without getting to long winded and id like to hear your thoughts.. .

i know the biblical account of the flood has been discussed ad nauseum.

adamah

all things are possible with God

Then it's about time he got off his fat lazy arse and did something useful!

I'll say! Humans are constantly calling him, but he doesn't pick up. It must be a long Sabbath Holiday weekend in Heaven (which never made sense to me, anyway, since God rested after creating mankind on the 7th day, but if 1,000 yrs is a day to Jehovah, then where did that 1,000 yr day go? It's not recorded in the Bible, or did God get a babysitter to keep an eye on Adam and Eve?)

But sure, God's omnipotence is the "get out of jail free" card that is used whenever they're stuck. And it's also WHY it's better to focus of what the account actually shows God doing (eg flip-flop regret, not offering any survivors on board the Ark, etc) since it means he COULD'VE done something different than killing all humans to cover up His earlier boo-boo (ooops: the account shows God forgot to tell mankind that murder and blood-shed was a sin until AFTER the Flood).

Comatose mentioned the inexplicable shifts between supernatural and natural events, when he said this:

Blending miracles with plausible explanations just does not mix.

Unfortunately, those mix all too easily, since that actually INCREASES the credibility of the story in the minds of believers since it's tha apparent ease with which they are slipped into the account. For example, in Adam and Eve, modern people will read about God shaping Adam out of dust as some poetic or metaphorical allusion, when NO, that was not actually even considered as odd to ancient people, but a perfectly NATURAL claim to make in the ancient World. But by the time Eve encounters a talking snake, you'd THINK that it would be clear to even modern readers that it's not LITERAL (eg Aesop's fables had talking animals, too, and even then, Greeks UNDERSTOOD that these were parables, not talking animals), but no; instead they make elaborate conspiracies (eg Satan possessed the serpent) to make it blend. The story presents it so nonchalantly, and the characters in the story don't question it, so the reader goes along with it.

That's similar to the point that Reza Aslan made in the video I posted a link to earlier in another thread about how writers of the Gospels NEVER INTENDED their writings to be taken as historical records of events, since that's a modern concept; instead, they had a MESSAGE they wanted to convey, as if Jesus himself were the living embodiment of a parable. Ancients just didn't think of the World the same as most modern people do.

Oh, on the 'releasing the bird' bit in the Noah account, a modern Christian would probably excuse that as God wanting Noah to stand on his own two feet, much in the same way they excuse the lack of communication with God today by claiming He doesn't want to make it TOO easy for people to believe in Him, since He values faith (which is contradicted by the example of Exodus, with all the miracles He demonstrated in the Wilderness, eg with the parting of the Red Sea). But in spite of such claims of miracles being witnessed in the Wilderness, the Exodus account states a good many Hebrews began to worship golden calves the first chance they got! Of course, that only allows JWs for not recognizing Jesus as their messiah (although he didn't fit the prophetic criteria in if only one HUGE way, as Aslan points out in the video) to think they're smarter than the silly Hebrews depicted in the account, pointing to how Jews lost the right to be YHWH's Chosen People as punishment.

Of course, that all plays right into the classic 'appeal to personal narcissism', which plays out all around the World when JWs talk on the platform to a roomful of JWs telling them they're the bright ones who've got it figgured (sic) out, as if in a self-congratulatory circle jerk.

Adam

22

No Natural Affection...

by lostinnj83 in

my latest encounter with my mom has me furious and i needed a place to vent:.

i don't post alot but for anyone who has read any of my posts knows that while i have been struggling for some time, i am still an active jw working towards leaving.. anyway, i got into a car accident yesterday.

fortunately i am well enough to type this up so for that i am greatful.

adamah

Lostinjj, yeah, that's really lame. Some people just don't know how to be in loving relationships, and seemingly don't have the capacity to give or receive love. What they're really doing is often just as bad as those who work 80 hours a week; it allows them to adandon their families, but only done using a different cover and excuse, so scared of loving and being loved they'll join a cult that immunizes them from it's "dangers"..

As you say, if they treat you like that NOW, then the silver lining is that being shunned will be nothing new, and arguably better, since it'll allow you to move on to find and experience 'other-than-dysfunctional' love and grow.

I've written about shunning on my blog, and how clearly a new approach is needed, so you might take a look if you get a chance.

Adam

20

The Paradox of Using Miracles to Explain the Bible Accounts

by Comatose in

i've been thinking about this for a week or so.

ill try to lay it out as clearly as possible without getting to long winded and id like to hear your thoughts.. .

i know the biblical account of the flood has been discussed ad nauseum.

adamah

ucantnome said-

He probably did it so it would take faith to believe it.

Bingo! That's part of it, too.

I've often pointed to the foolishness of arguing against the impossibility of what is claimed as being a miracle on the grounds of science, since it'll ALWAYS be met with a "God Dun IT!" defense.

However, it's actually even worse than that, since EVERY protestation that you make about why it's impossible (eg freshwater fish surviving in brackish water, etc) only serves to REINFORCE the sheer impossibility of the event, which is going to give the person more reason to view God as being even MORE POWERFUL than they actually appreciated before you pointed out the evidence, since in their mind, God was able to handle all these other minor details, too! Paradoxically you're only bolstering their beliefs by making it MORE IMPOSSIBLE, not LESS!

The thing is, people are known to prefer believing the IMPOSSIBLE over the highly IMPROBABLE. That's just a fundamental of human nature, and is expressed when someone like my JW brother told me with a look of utter gob-smacking amazement on his face, "There's just too many claims in the Bible for it NOT to be true! I mean, who could make anything like this UP?" So the sheer impossibility of the claims added up in his mind to actually transform the Bible into becoming MORE BELIEVABLE. THAT'S the paradox you're battling, and hence the reason why it foolishness to try and DISPROVE Biblical accounts of miracles!

And as stated above by ucantnome, faith kicks into gear when dealing with anything that cannot be understood by reason, and faith requires us to be willing to accept that which can not and never could be understood. Since the Bible places utmost value in 'faith' (just as any Nigerian scammer does, too), believing a story like the Flood actually becomes great proving grounds to strengthen one's faith! For a believer, a story like believing is like a gym for their faith (and note that one's belief in the global Flood has only paradoxically increased with time, i.e. it was even less magnificant and preposterous then, as to someone alive in 300BC, it didn't see all that impossible as it does today).

INSTEAD, I think it's better to 'soften' someone up by pointing out the inconsistencies in the Bible itself (as mentioned in my blog articles on the Flood, here and here), and then when they're able to see the weaknesses in the Bible accounts (which don't center on the miraculous elements of the story, but the actions of God, as depicted in the Genesis account), they're then hopefully willing to accept the evidence from science that points to the impossibility, and an more reasonable way to see the World.

Adam

31

Will Jehovah's Witnesses Populate Other Planets?

by God_Delusion in

hi guys,.

when i was growing up and pressured into having a bible study (although we didn't use the bible that much), i would ask my bible study conductor questions like:.

why are there so many other planets?.

adamah

Heck, Comatose, I'd join up TODAY if they had anything like that as standard-issue gear! You just cannot make up stuff like that (unless someone MADE UP stuff like that up).

EDIT: Shirley, they were still banging that anti-gravity drum after 45 years? I guess they figured the best way to hide a mistake was to repeat it, and claim it wasn't an accident (although it IS pretty low-risk, since it's no more miraculous than believing in a flood, resurrection, etc). Heck, maybe Jesus had a special thumb-nail that contained anti-gravity atoms so he could pull off the "walking on water" stunt?

On this, from Blondie's find:

w54 3/1 159 Questions From Readers ***

Whether there are other planets like the earth in other parts of the universe or not, and, if so, whether any of them are inhabited by some kind of life or not, or whether any of them ever will be so inhabited in the future or not, we cannot say because the Bible does not say. To concern ourselves with such questions is idle speculation, and we could never arrive at any definite answer. We can say, however, that there are no Scriptural grounds for contending that any future populating of other planets will be done by transporting couples from earth. The earth and the people on it are not that important. If Jehovah wanted flesh-and-blood creatures on other planets he could easily make them from the dust of those planets, and not need to miraculously transport earthly couples through light-years of space. It is well for us not to exalt ourselves to such a spectacular role in universal affairs, but concentrate on the earthly duties given us by our Creator. Remember what Jesus said: "Everyone that exalts himself will be humiliated, but he that humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:14; 14:7-11, NW.

More unintended irony, since doesn't the WT regularly tell members they must play a role in helping spread the Word of God so the Universal Sovereignty affair can be settled, once and for all?

It seems there was a LOT of rampant speculation going on amongst the congs about the theological implications of life on other planets, where the general interest in space exploration in the 1950's heightened and left a mark in JW literature (Bethel must've been bombarded by calls, letters, etc). I'm guessing that Luke scripture warning against such "haughty" speculation put a kabosh on some of it...

Adam

31

Will Jehovah's Witnesses Populate Other Planets?

by God_Delusion in

hi guys,.

when i was growing up and pressured into having a bible study (although we didn't use the bible that much), i would ask my bible study conductor questions like:.

why are there so many other planets?.

adamah

Seems like a logical conclusion to leap to, just after they get the whole anti-gravity thing worked out (talked about in the "Golden Age")!

From VM44 post, 9 yrs ago (!):

"Many have wondered how accidents would be avoided during Christ's kingdom, since we are told that nothing shall then hurt or destroy. Most accidents are due to gravitation and its effects. Falling from airplanes... etc., may be avoided by an individual negative gravity device. "Scientists tell us that there is enough atomic energy in a finger-nail to propel a battleship. The people of the future may carry a little of this energy around with them, and if they fall down an elevator shaft they can let themselves down easy. Then they can turn a little more on and go back up. ... No danger of falling down stairs then." - Golden Age, March 24, 1926, p. 404.

Adam

32

Office Building larger than Noah's Ark

by VM44 in

.

this three story office building has more square footage than noah's ark did.. do you think it is big enough to hold all the "kinds" of land animals along with enough food for them to last a year?.

could you fit all the animals from a small zoo in it, and expect them to live in it for a year?.

adamah

And just to add onto what 'Shirley' said above:

It is pure Provincialism sprinkled with healthy doses of arrogance that makes a story like Noah and The Flood so appealing to a person.

As much as mankind's KNOWLEDGE has increased from when the Torah was written, fundamental human nature is still THE SAME; someone born in 2013 is just as prone to manipulation and control by clever men as easily as someone who was living in ancient Judah was, given the same enviromental conditions (eg education). The Torah is an extremely clever work, which REVEALS exactly how people were able to control others then, as now.

In terms of evolution of the human brain, 3,000 yrs is but a BLINK of an eye, and the brain hasn't changed much since then: people just as prone to persuasions by carrying the same vulnerabilities, with the same mind-set as existed in ancient Israel, IF they desire to adopt an ancient World view.

The problem is compounded when some place the Bible as the center of their morality, a very dangerous thing (when combined with a corresponding lack of education):

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/child-abuse/259261/1/The-Ghost-Rapes-of-Bolivia

I'd recommend reading the story, as it's very scary statement about human nature, indeed....

jgnat said-

"Fairy tales are more than true -- not because they tell us dragons exist, but because they tell us dragons can be beaten." - Gaiman

Perhaps the take-away from the Noah's Ark story is that even in the face of epic wrath (an "Act of God"), human enterprise and ingenuity can find a way to survive.

Or, the other possibility is to recognize that in the account of Noah, God IS the dragon, and beating Him is done by realizing it's only a fairy tale (and a poorly-constructed one at that, since it contains many continuity errors that SHOULD reveal it's fantasy-like construct).

Adam

9

The Watchtower crazy train puts you on this trip of building resistance to people not unlike pavlov and his dog.

by Narcissistic Supply in

jw
friends

the watchtower crazy train puts you on this trip of building resistance to people not unlike pavlov and his dog.

its a process.

it doesnt happen overnight.

adamah

Narcisstic Supplier,

Although well-intentioned, I suspect your hyperbolic characterizations ('crazy train', 'wild eyed JW narcissist', comparing JWs to drug addicts/dealers, 'freak show', etc) is only going to be very off-putting to any JW lurkers. You may not realize that it's highly-offensive and pretty insulting to call them mentally-ill (crazy train)?

You don't have to answer of course, but do you actually intend to be so inflammatory and demeaning to others you're trying to persuade? Or is it perhaps a projection of your OWN narcissism?

There's an old truism how it's easier to attract with honey rather than vinegar. It should be clear by now that 'vinegar' doesn't work, since the angry hatred-filled screeds only lives up to the JW characterization of "mentally-diseased apostates", so you're actually playing right into the GB agenda as if confirming their claims.

Point being, I agree that messages like these valid and worthwhile:

I tell my kids all the time. You can choose to build bridges and build relationship with people or you canc hoose to push them away and isolate and control your small world. You can build the muscles of introversion and fear or you can challenge each and every fear one by one. You can choose to be a social animal or you can choose to be a social recluse.

It's just they aren't going to be well-received after you've insulted readers by calling them 'wild-eyed narcissists' (I read the phrased 'wild-eyed' and automatically think of wild-eyed firebomb-throwing anarchists/protesters, eg)

That seems an outlandish image to compare to JWs, since they're actually far from that (which is WHY they are in the cult, being controlled by the group). And if you think fighting against the "mentally-ill apostates" characterization is going to be fought by living UP to it, then you may not have as much of a grasp of human motivations as you think.

Adamah

32

Office Building larger than Noah's Ark

by VM44 in

.

this three story office building has more square footage than noah's ark did.. do you think it is big enough to hold all the "kinds" of land animals along with enough food for them to last a year?.

could you fit all the animals from a small zoo in it, and expect them to live in it for a year?.

adamah

@ Adam - "PS you "like" the story of God wiping out BILLIONS of people, just so eight could survive? Hmmm...."

That's your characterization of the account. That's not what I believe pal- but you don't really want to know what I believe you just want to tell us about your deep study of Hebrew scholars right?

True, but you seemingly are forgetting that everyone here kinda already KNOWS why it appeals to others, since we at one time actually BELIEVED it, too (at some point in our lives, whether when small children or as grandparents on their death beds). We know how it made US feel, and unless you think your psychology is SOOOO much different from the rest of the silly mass of humanity, then we can guess that your reasons are similar to ours. I mean, that's the entire basis on which the study of human psychology is built.

And you reinforce that point here:

@ Tiktaalik - You are also taking the statement that I like a story and leaping to conclusions about what I personally believe, in total ignorance.But you do have cool sunglasses on so that's a plus.

Nope, not "TOTAL ignorance" (as explained above).

Paradoxically, that statement gives supportive confirmation as to WHY the story makes you feel good, just like it did for us: the story appeals to one's personal sense of narcissism, where the story is DESIGNED to appeal to those who project themselves into the story to identify with Noah, the ONE righteous man who beat the long-shot odds of surviving, the one-out-of-a-billion who was favored by God as the WINNER to be hand-picked to survive.

You "like" the story for the same reason most of us did: it made us feel "special", warm and fuzzy inside, telling us that we too could beat the odds, if only we take the right steps to "keep Jehovah Happy", by preaching salvation (and as an aside, read my article on 2nd Peter and Noah: he didn't preach to anyone; the claim that Noah preached is another deception used to control people, since the book of Genesis points to the exact OPPOSITE, where God hand-picked him as the winner BEFORE even telling him a flood was to be held; the game was "rigged").

So think about it for a minute:

ALL readers of the account are told that THEY TOO can be the ones who beat the odds, when how can EVERYONE beat the odds? It's not far off from the famous carnie call, "Everyone's a winna!" which cannot possibly be true: how can EVERYONE win if NO ONE loses?

Christians rationalize that away by saying that all the Worldies are the LOSERS, the fools who don't get to survive on the Ark/Armageddon. Yeah, sure: THE REST of the World are the dumb ones, the ones who can't figure it all out, but the JWs are the "lucky ones" who are the smart boys, the one who don't fall for the oldest scam in the book even when they're reading it in Genesis.

That same appeal to one's sense of being "special" and the exceptions to the rule also explains why people buy megaball lottery tickets, despite the astronomical odds of actually winning (the odds are literally lower than being struck by lightning on a day when there's not a cloud in the sky). So why do people buy a lottery ticket? If they DO understand the odds (and not many have actually taken a statistics course, hence why it's often said that the lottery is the only tax people willingly stand in line to PAY) they enjoy the fantasy for a day or two, fantasizing what they're going to do IF they win, despite the incredible odds AGAINST winning. Hey, that's not a problem with me: if they're not diverting $ from from their kid's mouths to buy tickets and understand they're likely only buying a day-dream, then more power to them.

The PROBLEM is that OTHER PEOPLE will exploit their inability to discriminate between fantasy and reality in order to control them like puppets: perhaps you've heard of groups like the JW's? Their methods RELY, are BUILT UPON, those who WANT to believe in the Bible.

Reality doesn't care what we WISH it be: people once believed the Earth was flat, but the Earth didn't BECOME flat to accommodate their beliefs.

Hey, it's your life and you can dig as deeply into your beliefs and question them just as much as the next guy as you like, but ONLY if you're willing to do: no one can (or SHOULD) FORCE you to do so, or do the thinking for you, since harboring delusions is everyone's right.

However, it seems rather questionable for you to ask others to question THEIR beliefs about the JWs with the hidden-camera videos, recorded calls, etc. when you're seemingly not even willing to question your OWN beliefs in the plain light of day?

Jesus and ancient men clearly were aware of the power of denial, noting how people are easily able to see splinters in other people's eyes while not even seeing the rafter in their OWN. His deeper point may have been how the presence of objects in their eye actually makes it much HARDER to perceive, which in turn biases one's perceptions; that's actually a well-known tendency of human nature which has been confirmed by scientific studies, called 'confirmation bias', seeing what we WANT to see, rather than what is.

But like I say, it's no skin off my nose WHAT you believe; I'm just to help others to identify flaws in their thinking in order for them to liberate themselves from cults (where not all cults are JWs, and not all chains are placed on them by the WT, where some people place the shackles on themselves).

Regards,

Adam

268

After 2000 years since JC was executed ,why have we heard not a whisper from GOD ALMIGHTY ?

by smiddy in

he/she had no problem talking to adam and eve ,though they were sinners in his/her sight .throughout the hebrew sriptures, ot, he /she had no problem communicating with fallen man ,imperfect humans , to dictate his will to his subjects by means of prophets , male and female ,according to the bible , the old testament ,the hebrew scriptures , god communicated not once ,not twice ,not even thrice ,but dozens of times during the first 4000 years of human history according to the bible.. why has this god been so silent these past 2000 years ,when their have been atrocities above the scale of anything that has ever been seen these past 6000 years of human existence .. oh you may say that the atrocities were not committed by god they were committed by man.

fair enough .but god intervened in human affairs in such smaller infringements.

with prophets or so the bible says.. the so called apostacy after the last of the apostles , the influence of satan in the world ,( or was that after 1914 ,) and the 2000 year gap when christ was supposed to return ,never mind about all the crap that went before it .. the fact remains we have never heard from god ,any god, or even" a " god, with either his/her approval or disapproval of events good or bad these past 2000 years... smiddy.

adamah

@Adamah: I started the sentence with "in the Bible" ... that alone is already suggesting what you improved in my further writing. This due to the fact that English is not my native language. It means that I make mistakes in the texts. I am glad though that you still understood the point I was saying ;)

Yeah, my point wasn't to correct your writing but to highlight the short-cuts believers often make, forgetting that what they believe is often based on a series of questionable assumptions which somehow become fact. Even the phrase "in the Bible" means all things to all people, since some view the Bible as a fictionalized work of humans, whereas others are filled with a warm glow and take it as literal truth, straight from God's mouth to their ears (since "all scriptures are inspired by God").

Adam