Posts by shadow

31

WT elders school: The elders in our circuit appear to be "trained" quite well

by sir82 in

jw
friends

more ramblings from the recently concluded elders' school.. see the op on this thread for background: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/242491/5/wt-elders-school-the-wts-has-progressed-from-just-plain-stupid-to-dangerously-stupid.

in part of the video mentioned above showing the "goofus" elder trying to handle the situation with the crying sister:.

the "goofus" elder went into the kingdom hall library alone with the sister when she left the auditorium.. you could hear literal, audible, gasps from the 100 or so elders watching the video.. a few moments later, as the sister was crying, "goofus" put out his hand and touched the sister's hand.. again, literal, loud, audible gasps from the audience.. they darkened the room while the video was playing so i couldn't see him, but i have to imagine the co was quite pleased that the audience grasped the "mistakes" that elder goofus was making.. .

shadow

so what was the correct answer about the kid according to co?

18

Mr. Wade from noblood.org

by turtleturtle in

choices are or are not.

witnesses we do not.

of their choices.

shadow

that site must have Bethel's approval or I'm sure they would take it down

49

My letter to elders. Just drafted... PLEASE tell me what you think... Greybeard

by Greybeard in

jw
friends

to: all elders in the grover beach congregation of jehovah witnesses, the watchtower corporation and governing body of "jehovah witnesses" .

from: gregg blasingame.

cc: watchtower inc.. dear brothers,.

shadow

what is your goal? to help them or help yourself?

do you want to avoid getting df'd?

41

Hypocritical statement in the July 15th Watchtower denouncing those who "forsake" family members on religious grounds

by cedars in

i've had a quick glance through the july 15th watchtower, and at first reading there seems nothing too dramatic to report.. the title of the first article "let jehovah guide you to true freedom" seemed ironic to say the least.

not surprisingly, the way you get more freedom is by relinquishing it entirely to the watch tower society.

there is also a bizarre statement in the very first paragraph of the article on page 7 (bold highlighted remarks are mine):.

shadow

Lol! Hadn't noticed the clothes! The first bad boy has shirt untucked. Second bad boy not wearing jacket. Third & fourth bad boys wearing t-shirts. Amazing!!!

10

Need some help guys on blood

by alanv in

recently on the topix website we have talking about blood transfusions.. it has been asserted by one ex witness that jws are now allowed to store their blood providing it is for a limited time.

for example the blood could be taken from the patient sent to the lab to have it cleaned or whatever, and then returned to the patient.

the november 2006 kingdom ministry was cited to back this up as well as a watchtower from 2000. my question is, are jws now allowed to store their blood for a current limited time?.

shadow

This is a thread from a website that includes HLC members and health professionals. It appears they have hidden this thread which discusses your question. Read it and you'll see why . . . .

NoBlood.org - Cell-salvage, Irradiation + Jehovah's Witnesses

#1
09-18-2003, 09:09 AM
John Viney

At a recent medical conference, a case was put concerning a female Jehovah's Witness patient with extensive hip osteosarcoma undergoing hemipelvectomy, who consented to the use of blood salvage with irradiation. The medical argument was irradiation over leucodepletion filters, the filters only reducing cancerous cells whereas irradiation eliminating the cells completely.
The interesting thing for me as a Patient Representative was what was involved in irradiation. The doctor explained that up to 3 units were processed by being transferred to an irradiation bag, labelled for identification, irradiated at another location outside the operating theatre and returned to the theatre for re-transfusion within 10 to 30 minutes. During questions after the lecture, another doctor raised the point that this procedure was not acceptable to Jehovah's Witnesses, but the speaker assured the audience that it was. (There is a potential 'spiritual' aspect which I would be happy to continue privately by email)
Have any directors or managers of bloodless centres had this situation and is irradiation in use with cell-salvage in USA (This case was from Europe)

#2
09-18-2003, 09:38 AM
Jo Valenti

Hi John, I heard that same presentation. I had the same questions about it. So I initiated a conversation with Jorge Martinez who also was in the room and heard the presentation. Jorge and I agreed that since there is nowhere in print any actual length of time requirements and in this case, the blood is not removed for storage but for a procedure being done to it, some Jehovah's Witness patients might not object to it.
That being said, I wonder how I would explain it to a patient.....
Jo
__________________
Jo Valenti, RN
CBMS
Hackensack University Medical Center

#3
09-18-2003, 10:45 AM
Todd Hofmeister

The Explanation to a Jehovah's Witness is that this is part of an ONGOING THERAPYand that the blood is not stored at any time. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society leaves these decisions up to the individual. As a result, some will accept this procedure and others will not.

#4
09-19-2003, 06:59 AM
Deb Arceneaux

Mr. Viney: This is an interesting subject. According to your description, this is part of an on-going therapy and is therefore a personal decision for a Jehovah's Witness. In the USA, the Witnesses' Durable Power of Attorney for Healthcare no longer describes conscience matter(s) for them being part of a 'continuous loop' but part of an "ongoing therapy". This could include such alternatives as platelet gel, tagging, and others. I hope this helps answer your concern.

#5
09-19-2003, 02:02 PM
jvarisco

Hi Jo & John,
I had the same feelings about the patient's blood leaving the room. I had the opportunity to eat dinner with the physician who spoke on this occasion and presented the case. I happened to be the only Jehovah's Witness at the table, so I daringly posed the question to the physician. He said that he went over the whole process with the patient and with her "clergyman" (who I assumed was on the HLC), and the patient agreed to the process involved. I told the physician that possibly different patients might object to that process, so don't be thrown off guard if that happens. Each individual has to make a personal choice, since the Bible does not consider all the medical interventions that exist today. The personal decisions a Jehovah's Witness makes concerning how their blood is to be treated becomes a matter of sacredness.
Some patients, even after viewing the "No Blood" video, object to cellsalvage, so I guess just explaining the process in plain terms and allowing the patient to make a totally informed decision is the only way to go.
I'm so glad others were concerned with this process and voiced that concern.
Jessica Varisco
Blood Conservation Program Coordinator
Houston, TX
__________________
Jessica Varisco, BMPC
Advance Directives Educator
Blood Conservation/Management Program Coordinator
Houston, TX

#6
09-22-2003, 01:25 PM
DanFriedman

I agree with all comments made, and they are in accord with my last conversation with H.I.S. I'm just not sure when the "issue" changed from "blood leaving the body" to "storage"...
Regards,
Dan Friedman
Bloodless Healthcare Development

#7
09-23-2003, 02:00 PM
rjbsec

These posts reminds me that one of the dangers in liaison with JW patient and medical staff, that we must be ever aware of, is perhaps in trying to "justify" (if that is not too strong a word) the use of any form of treatment. It is so easy for us to find a solution to a problem by telling one of our brothers or sisters that a procedure, is in effect, "okay" because of another Witness having accepted it or "the Society says it's okay" etc. Indeed some of our brothers might WANT us to tell them that it is okay!
Guidance received to date seems to indicate that a full and detailed explanation of the procedure involved is the best way to help our brothers decide. This, together with a review of scriptural principles and the latest guidance from the Society, provides them with the means to decide about treatment options for them. Prayerful consideration by the patient of both the procedure and the scriptural position then allows them to make an informed decision on the basis of their own conscience, rather then being swayed by the conscience of another (either for or against) and feeling regret afterwards.
“But if he has doubts, he is already condemned if he eats, because he does not eat out of faith. Indeed, everything that is not out of faith is sin.” (Rom. 14:23) The apostle directs this remark to those professing to be Christians, not to unbelievers. What a person does should be something that in no way makes his conscience uncomfortable. If his conscience is bothered, he is self-condemned. And he should constantly strive for a clear picture of the Christian faith, so as to achieve a more balanced conscience. While not all things that a Christian does have a direct connection with the proclamation of the “good news,” what he does, even in recreation and relaxation, he does with the view of upbuilding himself and others."
Teaching grandmother to suck eggs maybe, but still a useful reminder.

#8
09-24-2003, 12:00 PM
jbwade

Hmmm

I think we are treading on a slippery slope by discussing anecdotal comments or conversations with HIS. The lastest information occurring in the October 15 'Questions From Readers' is the last word I know of on this subject.
I am attaching it.
Here are a couple of statement from the article. The word stored is used because PAD is being discussed. Is it possible that blood can be poured out and then reinfused if it is done in the name of an "ongoing medical prodedure"? I lean toward the "if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck its probably a duck" school of thought. Also a rose by any other name is still a rose is it not?
"Occasionally, a doctor will urge a patient to deposit his own blood weeks before surgery (preoperative autologous blood donation, or PAD) so that if the need arises, he could transfuse the patient with his own stored blood. However, such collecting, storing, and transfusing of blood directly contradicts what is said in Leviticus and Deuteronomy.
Blood is not to be stored; it is to be poured out—returned to God, as it were. Granted, the Mosaic Law is not in force now. Nevertheless, Jehovah’s Witnesses respect the principles God included in it, and they are determined to ‘abstain from blood.’ Hence, we do not donate blood, nor do we store for transfusion our blood that should be ‘poured out.’ That practice conflicts with God’s law..." "Other procedures or tests involving an individual’s own blood are not so clearly in conflict with God’s stated principles. For instance, many
Christians have allowed some of their blood to be withdrawn for testing or analysis, after which the sample is discarded. Other more complex procedures involving one’s blood may also be recommended." "There are also tests in which a quantity of blood is withdrawn in order to tag it or to mix it with medicine, whereupon it is put back into the patient." "The details may vary, and new procedures, treatments, and tests will certainly be developed. It is not our place to analyze each variation and render a decision. A Christian must decide for himself how his own blood will be handled in the course of a surgical procedure, medical test, or current therapy. Ahead of time, he should obtain from the doctor or technician the facts about what might be done with his blood during the procedure. Then he must decide according to what his conscience permits."
Attached Files
w00 10 QR.doc (25.5 KB, 16 views)
__________________
Jan Wade
Developer/Manager
Blood Management Programs
Seattle, WA
Skype me!
Last edited by jbwade : 09-24-2003 at 04:09 PM.

#9
09-24-2003, 03:25 PM
John Viney

Thank you for your comments concerning cell-salvaged blood, irradiation and the issue for Jehovah's Witnesses. This medical experience highlights the point made in the Q from R article, "The details may vary, and new procedures, treatments, and tests will certainly be developed".
A "new procedure" is now being offered and no doubt will be available to many more patients as it gains acceptance in the medical world.
What about the next point: "It is not our place to analyze each variation and render a decision. A Christian must decide for himself how his own blood will be handled in the course of a surgical procedure, medical test, or current therapy. ...Then he must decide
according to what his conscience permits." This is the definitive answer. As Patient Representatives on HLC's we sometimes have to hear doctors explain their prefered choice of treatment to patients so the patient can decide what to accept or decline. The maxim still applies 'Doctors advise, Patients decide'. If the above 'procedure' was offered and accepted by a Jehovah's Witness patient, it would fall into the parameters of the above Q from R. We may not choose such an option, but it IS an option that they can choose. The bottom line is this: If the patient agreed to irradiate cell-salvaged blood by removing it to another location and then returning it for re-infusion during the course of an operation, no form of Judicial action would be taken and hence would be acceptable if that is their decision.
It was my intention just to bring to the forefront that this procedure is being offered so that when it is discussed with doctors, we give a unified response: That response is "It is up to the patient to decide."
Finally , my actual question on this thread was "Is this procedure currently being offered in USA? The case came from Europe and I wondered if it was available over there?

#10
09-24-2003, 04:12 PM
jbwade

irradiation
I haven't seen it here in Fresno, California.
__________________
Jan Wade
Developer/Manager
Blood Management Programs
Seattle, WA
Skype me!

#11
09-25-2003, 03:14 PM
Vernon

Irradiation is something I heard about at a conference in the Netherlands last year. Dr. Hansen (from Germany) gave an excellent lecture on his experience with the technique. I came home hopeful that some of the US hospitals would consider this as an option in cancer surgery, however the response has been somewhat disappointing, yet realistic. The logistics of sending blood to the blood bank (as the majority of hospitals do not have irradiators in the OR), irradating, and sending back is problematic. First, who is the runner, second, what if the irradiator is in use, third the turn-around time back to OR and finally another transporter. And, with all of this, you have the potential for human error and the reduced amount of time you now have to reinfuse the blood. In the discussion at the SABM conference, the US physicians agreed. It is possible that one of the major cancer centers may have experimented with this technique, however I am not aware of any published literature on the process. Highlighting, once again, that Europe reaches beyond the confines of the FDA.

#12
09-29-2003, 03:45 PM
John Viney

Join Date: Mar 2003

Sorry - I have a virus
In my first posting I suggested that anyone wanting a private discussion contact me through e-mail. My computer has had a virus and I have not been able to access my e-mails for a week. I mention this in case anyone did contact me and I have not replied. I CAN access the private message on this site until I get the 'bug' sorted, if you dont mind re-sending.
Thanks John Viney

32

Greetings and best wishes: Introduction of Mediator007

by mediator007 in

jw
friends

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i thought i should introduce myself as i have been reading your various threads.

shadow

except for being a Nam vet, I could have written your post. you are not alone but I have found no solution to the puzzle

51

Circuit Leasing selling on JW.ORG ????

by yknot in

so i was poking around jw.org a lil recently...... noticed this advertisement was still present in the 'privileged' section (ie you gotta have login access).

this was posted on jw.org a little over a year ago (as shown in pic) but since it is still viewable......figured it is fair-game for jwn fodder.

thoughts?????.

shadow

so can i advertise my used car on kh bulletin board?

97

Elder father sent me an email about Feb 2012 WT - my resposne

by TheStumbler in

i'm not sure if any of you will remember but i posted on here six months ago about a correspondence i was having with my dad, an elder, about who would die in armageddon.

i was asking some tough questions about children being killed in armageddon and i could tell he uncomfortable with the answers he was giving.. i drafted an email in resposne to his email but in the end i decided not to send it in the interest of maintaining friendly relations.. .

last week, out of the blue, my dad sent an email link to the february 2012 watchtower article about armageddon and said it would answer some of my questions.. here is my response which is a critique of the feb 2012 wt article and some of the broader ethics concerning 'armageddon'.

shadow

*** w08 11/1 p. 28 Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe That They Are the Only Ones Who Will Be Saved? ***
Our Readers Ask
Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe That They Are the Only Ones Who Will Be Saved?

Jehovah’s Witnesses think that they have found the true religion. If they did not think so, they would change their beliefs. Like adherents of many religious faiths, Jehovah’s Witnesses hope to be saved. However, they also believe that it is not their job to judge who will be saved. Ultimately, God is the Judge. He decides.—Isaiah 33:22.

God’s Word reveals that those who would be saved must not only want salvation but also cooperate with the Savior. To illustrate: Suppose that a hiker becomes lost in a wilderness. He desperately wants to find his way out. Will he perish, or will he survive? The outcome depends on the way he responds to help. Out of pride, he may refuse the help of a rescuer, or savior. On the other hand, he could humbly accept help and reach safety.
In a similar way, salvation belongs to those who cooperate with mankind’s Rescuer, Jehovah God. Salvation is a gift from God, yet not all people will attain it. God’s Son, Jesus, said: “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.”—Matthew 7:21.

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that God saves only those who exercise faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus and closely follow Jesus’ teachings. (Acts 4:10-12) Consider three important requirements for salvation that are revealed in God’s Word.

(1) “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves,” Jesus told his companions. (John 13:35) Jesus’ own example of giving his life in behalf of others stressed the importance of love. Those who love others are demonstrating a quality vital for salvation.
(2) “I have made your name known to them,” said Jesus in prayer to his Father. (John 17:26) Jesus knew how important God’s personal name, Jehovah, was to his Father. Jesus prayed for his Father’s name to “be sanctified.” (Matthew 6:9) Sanctifying God’s name includes knowing that name and treating it as important and holy. Like Jesus, those seeking salvation need to use God’s name. They also need to teach others about God’s name and qualities. (Matthew 28:19, 20) In fact, only those calling on God’s name will be saved.—Romans 10:13.

(3) “My kingdom is no part of this world,” Jesus said to Pontius Pilate. (John 18:36) Few today demonstrate faith in God’s Kingdom, or government, of which Jesus is King. Instead, they place their trust in human institutions. By contrast, those who will be saved loyally support God’s Kingdom and teach others about how it will liberate all faithful mankind.—Matthew 4:17.

After learning some of the requirements for salvation, Jesus’ disciples said: “Who possibly can be saved?” Jesus answered: “The things impossible with men are possible with God.” (Luke 18:18-30) Jehovah’s Witnesses diligently try to meet these requirements for salvation. They also work hard to help others to be saved.

97

Elder father sent me an email about Feb 2012 WT - my resposne

by TheStumbler in

i'm not sure if any of you will remember but i posted on here six months ago about a correspondence i was having with my dad, an elder, about who would die in armageddon.

i was asking some tough questions about children being killed in armageddon and i could tell he uncomfortable with the answers he was giving.. i drafted an email in resposne to his email but in the end i decided not to send it in the interest of maintaining friendly relations.. .

last week, out of the blue, my dad sent an email link to the february 2012 watchtower article about armageddon and said it would answer some of my questions.. here is my response which is a critique of the feb 2012 wt article and some of the broader ethics concerning 'armageddon'.

shadow

*** rs p. 47 - p. 48 Armageddon ***
What will happen to young children at Armageddon?

The Bible does not directly answer that question, and we are not the judges. However, the Bible does show that God views the young children of true Christians as “holy.” (1 Cor. 7:14) It also reveals that in times past when God destroyed the wicked he likewise destroyed their little ones. (Num. 16:27, 32; Ezek. 9:6) God does not want anyone to be destroyed, so he is having a warning sounded now to benefit both parents and children. Would it not be wise for parents to pursue a course that would result in their children being looked on with favor by God both now and at Armageddon?

238

Active JW understands flaws in WTS doctrine but believes in the Bible

by flamegrilled in

perhaps this is a common topic for newbies on the site, but i have browsed for a while and not seen this exactly answered.. as an active jw who understands the flaws in wts doctrine, but believes in the bible, how do i identify a form of worship that meets all the criterea:.

1) by this all will know you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves (john 13:35).

sure i know that not all jws do this, and that people from other religions or non-religious people do this also, but as an official doctrine jws will not kill one another in war, and in general there is a genuine effort to exercise "agape" love not widely found in the world at large.. 2) preach the good news.

shadow

So you still believe in the Bible and think Jehovah's Witnesses have some of the basics right. But you wonder if there is something better out there that does not have all the crap along with it. I think yours is a quest for the fountain of youth. Any organization with humans involved will inevitably be encumbered by the opinions of those at the top. The governing body would like us to think that Jehovah's Witnesses are in exception to this rule but we really are not. I was baptized about 40 years ago and currently inactive though I still attend meetings. There are a number of things I don't agree with but like you have not found a better option. Ancient Israel and first century Christianity also had plenty of problems but apparently were still acceptable to Jehovah. Perhaps Jehovah's Witnesses are too.