Posts by robhic

4

jehovah shows he's humble and humbly allows Thor, a bulleye drop kick

by frankiespeakin in

i mean they are both imaginary, so do you think this jehovah god, who is so jealous, so pouty, so insecure,, that he needs our worship to be made whole,, what did he do for the first part of eternity before he created anything, when he was without subjects to boss around.

sure seems like he's pretty whimpy!!!

and needs to keep reassurring his ego,, pressuring people to worship him promising to listen to their prayers for victory over their enemies and lots of good food, and to some pardise earth everlastingly you name it he can give it to you if you worship him.. .

robhic

Frankie:

You hit the nail square on the head! I read the bible later in life (last year to be exact) and instead of coming away with a better insight or understanding of religion and spirituality, I had the opposite reaction.

After reading only a portion of the Old Testament I was pushed more in an agnostic direction than anything. How could a supposed supreme, loving creator be nothing more than a petty, small, insecure (as you said), vengeful, violent, mysoginistic, racist narcissist? For being so loving of the people he supposedly created he sure had/has a funny way of showing it. If there is a god, the one in the OT ain't it!

If you didn't "walk in a way pleasing to the lord" then you were toast. You'd get killed, have your family killed, sold into slavery or had your life, in general, made a living hell. That's not "loving" in my book. Other than the few excruciatingly boring chapters such as Numbers, Deuteronomy and Leviticus where the impossible load of laws were imposed on the people, the OT reads like the life of a serial killer or head of an organized crime family!

Another thread mused about how the bible would be reviewed today by today's standards. I don't see Barnes & Noble selling a book filled with sex -- incest, pedophilia, violent -- and killing -- genocidal, infanticidal, senseless -- like this book that has been revered for thousands of years. I agree with your reasoning, above.

A "real' god who embodied the characterisitics of a loving person and parent wouldn't have required his "children" to be afflicted like they are/were. A good parent would punish to fit the crime. Disobedience by a child? Getting a slap or sent to your room is plenty.Stoning outside the gates of the city is a bit over-the-top. And the list goes on...

Yes, I think that a god deserving of love (because it is earned, not entitled in my opinion) would have behaved a bit more maturely instead of the spoiled child routine. A "real" god would kick his ass because he would embody the character of a reasonable person not a megalomaniac with phsychotic, uncontrolled outbursts. Thor is a good choice although I think any number of so-called gods and supreme beings over the years could handle things quite well, too. I like the way you think!

Robert the Heathen

17

All Scripture Inspired?

by Carmel in

let's assume you believe that jesus was the "son of god" had a direct link to all knowledge, okay?

would it be fair to conclude that he was "informed" of the other greater and older civilizations around the world as he trudged from nazareth to jerusalem?

would he not also be aware of zoroaster, relatively next door, chrisna and buddha further to the east?

robhic

On a slightly different slant, what has nagged at me is "what is the difference between inspired and dictated?"

If someone is "inspired" to do something I usually think of it more as motivational. The bible authors could have been inspired but still did not have every word dictated to them, right? Like the ideas were inspired and then the human with his/her human bias factored in.

If all scripture was dictated by a higher power and just transcribed by the authors then you'd really have something ironclad. Inspired sounds, to me, like it leaves room for some error, bias and just plain "wiggle-room." It sounds good but isn't 100% perfect.

Robert

21

Need some advice/input for a possible "showdown."

by robhic in

i asked my jw girlfriend some questions a while back that she was unable to answer so i gave her cites from wts literature to backup my assertions.

i could see a glimmer of confusion that maybe i had a point.

now she wants me to just have a nice little chat with her good pioneer friend (black lady, very nice in her mid 50's) to ask the questions so that someone more knowlegeable can take a shot at my queries.. so my question is how should i go about this informal little chat?

robhic

black lady, very nice in her mid 50's

Well... that changes everything on your approach. How black is she? Is she skinny or fat? What about you? Are you black?
I just dont understand how this is related to your question.

I apologize if this comment offended anyone. I suppose this is a valid point. The race, at least, makes no difference but, IMO, a lady in her mid 50's could be a substantially different opponent than a younger, inexperienced person (OK, woman or man...) in their 20's. Isn't it? Since I am 50 I guess the age, specifically, seemed relevant as would the gender but race is, agreed, not.

An older person who had been a Pioneer for many years and a JW for 30-50 years would be, again IMO, a more formidable challenge than a young girl in her early 20's who had Pioneered for a couple of years. I was just relaying information and didn't think my initial comment thru as far as relevance. Sorry.

Anyway, it looks as if the discussion ain't gonna happen that way. The Pioneer told my friend that she wasn't going to discuss Charles Russell and other early JW things. I don't know why and I didn't mention those things in the first place. I had a general doctrinal discussion in mind based on my reading and some research mainly from the "What Does God Require of Us?" book. I really wanted to hear the explanation for 1914...

Robert

21

Need some advice/input for a possible "showdown."

by robhic in

i asked my jw girlfriend some questions a while back that she was unable to answer so i gave her cites from wts literature to backup my assertions.

i could see a glimmer of confusion that maybe i had a point.

now she wants me to just have a nice little chat with her good pioneer friend (black lady, very nice in her mid 50's) to ask the questions so that someone more knowlegeable can take a shot at my queries.. so my question is how should i go about this informal little chat?

robhic

Thanks to all for such useful and insightful information. You all make very good and valid points. Just a small background that might answer a few questions. The girl I am involved with has been a JW since 2000 and we've been together since 1998. She converted 2 years after we were together. We are also both handicapped, her more seriously -- almost home-bound -- since 2002, so revoking her "priviledges" is a moot point. She hasn't been to the KH, a convention or anything for well over a year.

I am not absolutely positive that any wedding will take place. This was just a preliminary discussion and I was more concerned as to what I should do if talked into the "discussion" with the Pioneer. At this point, it looks like that might not fly because she decided she would want to do it at her house, just the 2 of us. I think that might be to prevent my girlfriend from hearing my questions and the Pioneer's dogmatic, bullshit-based explanations. I don't think I'm going to do that unless everybody is present. This was to be a learning experience -- for both of us.

Thanks again for all the input. You've all given me something to think about, especially Garybuss who does conjure up some explicit images with his reply!!! I hate dentistry and proctological dentistry sounds even worse. I guess I'll wait and see how this shapes up and then, if needed, just put on my best smile, warmest personality and try to keep everybody focused on any question I raise and the proof that I will demand. Not just "because it says so in the WT..."

Robert

21

Need some advice/input for a possible "showdown."

by robhic in

i asked my jw girlfriend some questions a while back that she was unable to answer so i gave her cites from wts literature to backup my assertions.

i could see a glimmer of confusion that maybe i had a point.

now she wants me to just have a nice little chat with her good pioneer friend (black lady, very nice in her mid 50's) to ask the questions so that someone more knowlegeable can take a shot at my queries.. so my question is how should i go about this informal little chat?

robhic

I asked my JW girlfriend some questions a while back that she was unable to answer so I gave her cites from WTS literature to backup my assertions. I could see a glimmer of confusion that maybe I had a point. Now she wants me to just have a nice little chat with her good Pioneer friend (black lady, very nice in her mid 50's) to ask the questions so that someone more knowlegeable can take a shot at my queries.

So my question is how should I go about this informal little chat? I don't want to come out like the Mega-Heathen and I want to stay away from bible stuff because this woman will chew me up and spit me out. I'd like to keep it centered on my questions about WTS doctrines, flip-flops, issues, etc. I don't want it to get ugly but I don't want this woman using "Yes but it's invisible so you should believe it" or "because the WTS says so and they talk to Jehovah" to back her assertions. I want facts, ma'am, just the facts!

Can you give me any pointers or suggestions of how to approach and get thru this without looking like a dick or a heathen bastard? Skim thru some books I have (Crisis of Conscience, etc.) beforehand or any good opening gambit I should keep in mind? Good questions I can open with? I don't want to be adversarial and don't want to do a "You're wrong about 1914, you dumbass!" type thing but I'd like to know what might happen and how I should try to keep this about WTS issues and not let myself get clobbered by her much better knowledege of the bible itself.

On a side note, my JW girlfriend asked me to marry her yesterday! I really don't think the two situations are related nor are some nefarious plan. She's just not nefarious... She also wondered, if I didn't mind, if a simple ceremony at the KH would be all right. I don't think she knows as much about JW as she thinks. I don't see a JW-nonJW wedding taking place with their approval, much less using their hall.

Anyway, I certainly appreciate any tips on how to keep from getting slaughtered and just asking some simple, WTS literature-backed up questions and see what happens. Thanks to any and all who can give me any input regarding this potential showdown.

Robert

4

Need Book Title!

by robhic in

interlinear, (1969 edition, p. 11):

the divine name: one of the remarkable facts, not only about the extant manuscripts of the original greek text, but of many versions, ancient and modern, is the absence of the divine name... [comments about divine name in ot]...as the christian greek scriptures were an inspired addition and supplement to the sacred hebrew scriptures, this sudden disappearance from the greek text seems inconsistent... .

the above reference was given to me to support the fact that the name "jehovah" does not appear in any of the existing greek manuscripts from which the new testament was written.

robhic

Nathan, thank you for your quick response. I appreciate it and liken it to me "girding my loins for battle."

Robert

4

Need Book Title!

by robhic in

interlinear, (1969 edition, p. 11):

the divine name: one of the remarkable facts, not only about the extant manuscripts of the original greek text, but of many versions, ancient and modern, is the absence of the divine name... [comments about divine name in ot]...as the christian greek scriptures were an inspired addition and supplement to the sacred hebrew scriptures, this sudden disappearance from the greek text seems inconsistent... .

the above reference was given to me to support the fact that the name "jehovah" does not appear in any of the existing greek manuscripts from which the new testament was written.

robhic

Interlinear, (1969 edition, p. 11):
THE DIVINE NAME: One of the remarkable facts, not only about the extant manuscripts of the original Greek text, but of many versions, ancient and modern, is the absence of the divine name... [Comments about divine name in OT]...As the Christian Greek Scriptures were an inspired addition and supplement to the sacred Hebrew Scriptures, this sudden disappearance from the Greek text seems inconsistent...

The above reference was given to me to support the fact that the name "Jehovah" does not appear in any of the existing Greek Manuscripts from which the New Testament was written.

I was also given something from an "Insight" book and the WT from 3/1/91 that basically admit the same thing: The WTS added the name to the Greek Scriptures because they felt it should be there.

Can anyone give me the correct or complete name of that "Interlinear" book reference above and also, is the "Insight book" called "Insight from the Scriptures"?

A JW friend (sometmes girlfriend) has sicced some elders on me because I told her whenever JWs knock at my door they are unable to answer my statement about the name appearing 7000 times in the Bible ("What Does God Require of Us? book). I said that it didn't and the WT admits it. I don't know what this former elder is going to tell me -- If I even decide to waste my time talking with him.

I was told he was "very smart." Yeah? How smart can he be, he's still in the organization?!

If anyone can please give me the correct name of that Interlinear book and the Insight book I'd sincerely appreciate it. I think a show-down is brewing!!!

Robert

5

Factors that Influence Fear of Death

by peacefulpete in

this is an review of a study that was done in florida u.s.a. the language is thick, but all terms are defined.

the results are interesting and surprising.

wisdom, purpose in life, and attitudes toward death (pdf)

robhic

Do JW fear death as stated above? I have a JW friend who, just this evening, told me (again) that she would welcome death. She has Multiple Sclerosis and has been having a rough time of it the last year or so, so she welcomes death. She says it would just be existing in nothingness, not experiencing or feeling anything and waiting for jehovah to resurrect her on the earthly paradise in a perfect body.

Sounds OK in theory, but I told her it seems that that would be ungrateful to jehovah for giving her the life she has now (it is a gift, isn't it?) and wanting to squander it for whatever reason. You gotta play the hand dealt you...

Is this realistic or do JW really have a fear of death moreso than it being the "holding pattern" for eternal life in paradise?

Robert

21

Armageddon -- truth or fiction?

by robhic in

i happened to see something on the history channel the other night and, as i was half-listening, i thought the comments were made that the word/name "armageddon" doesn't actually appear in the bible.

i did a quick search thru my electronic "e-sword" bible program and couldn't find any mention of the name in any versions.

the history channel show said amageddon was a reference to the place where all of the armies are going to meet up to throw down in the final conflict that is called armageddon.

robhic

Thus spake Gopher:

Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Or another way to spell it is "Har-Mageddon", which means "mountain of Megiddo".

Ah, spelling was the culprit! Thanks to Gopher and the others for the information. It still is interesting that an event that is referred to so frequently by all or most religious groups isn't that ubiquitous at all. Rev 16:15 makes an intreresting point about running around nekkid, too. They used some heavy drugs back then, eh?

Also, good point by Nathan. Yes, my life is better now than it was back in the 1800's, although I miss my concubines.

Robert

21

Armageddon -- truth or fiction?

by robhic in

i happened to see something on the history channel the other night and, as i was half-listening, i thought the comments were made that the word/name "armageddon" doesn't actually appear in the bible.

i did a quick search thru my electronic "e-sword" bible program and couldn't find any mention of the name in any versions.

the history channel show said amageddon was a reference to the place where all of the armies are going to meet up to throw down in the final conflict that is called armageddon.

robhic

I happened to see something on the History channel the other night and, as I was half-listening, I thought the comments were made that the word/name "Armageddon" doesn't actually appear in the bible. How could that be as much as it is used? I did a quick search thru my electronic "e-Sword" bible program and couldn't find any mention of the name in any versions. What gives?

The History channel show said Amageddon was a reference to the place where all of the armies are going to meet up to throw down in the final conflict that is called Armageddon. It's not an event, it's a location -- "Meggido" -- and the battle will follow. But neither of those words is in the bible. Hmmm...

Is the use of the name Armageddon just a reference to something commonly understood to be the battle of the end or are JW and other christian groups mis-using this term? Not a big deal bit I figured some of the smarties here would be able to give a non-JW and general heathen by nature a quick explanation.

Thanks for your time and any info.

Robert