Posts by starScream

72

Sex in the New Book "Learn from the Great Teacher"

by AlanF in

i just obtained a copy of one of the new releases from the summer jw district conventions, learn from the great teacher.

this book is oriented towards children, and frankly, is a stereotypical piece of propaganda from the "faithful and discreet slave".

in some ways the book is incredibly revealing, since it has to break down a number of ridiculous jw teachings into a form that even jw children can swallow, and when those teachings are put into simplest form their ridiculousness is evident to everyone but small children and stereotypically braindead jws.

starScream

funkyderek,

Thanks for the contribution. Notice that there are a few differences in the scenario you brought. One is of a slave girl promised to be married.

In the instance you bring up it envolves, rape and virginity. So in terms of the slave girl not promised to be married it is silent. The consequences of that circumstance are not given. The rape of a man's virgin daughter is another scenario entirely. I actually considered using it in my original post but decided it was a little irrelevant to my theme.

But thanks anyhow

72

Sex in the New Book "Learn from the Great Teacher"

by AlanF in

i just obtained a copy of one of the new releases from the summer jw district conventions, learn from the great teacher.

this book is oriented towards children, and frankly, is a stereotypical piece of propaganda from the "faithful and discreet slave".

in some ways the book is incredibly revealing, since it has to break down a number of ridiculous jw teachings into a form that even jw children can swallow, and when those teachings are put into simplest form their ridiculousness is evident to everyone but small children and stereotypically braindead jws.

starScream

hi neonmadman

He was an apostle chosen by God, wasn't he?

yup

Wouldn't that mean that commandments he gave were really from God?

It most certainly could, but he admitted that his admonitions were not always commands from God.

If you are really a "fundamentalist," as you claim, why would you doubt this portion of scripture, unless it's just that you don't want to believe what it says?

AHAH! Im not the one that is being inconsistent though! Paul said to not marry a women if she is a virgin. It is not I that has decided that it was not a command from God. When was the last time you heard a Christian condemn someone for marrying a virgin? I have NEVER heard it. Paul specifically said not to do it. SPECIFICALLY. He couldn't be more clear. It is obviously not a sin to marry a virgin though. It violates no Law from God to do so. Paul freely admits that not everything he says to do is a command from God. But in this instance he just said DO NOT MARRY A WOMAN IF SHE IS A VIRGIN. If you ask the question as to why he said that you will realize where he is coming from and why he says a lot of things. But to conclude that it is a sin to marry a virgin is inconsistent with scripture and doesn't make any sense and any fundamentalist in the world would agree with me on that.

So, if the Bible says something is a sin, it's a sin.

That is precisely my point. That is what I am saying. I thought you read my post. The OT is very specific about sin. It is not vague. They get into all the gory details about what God prohibits.

There are clear commandments against fornication in the Bible.

Absolutely, and "fornication" as translated is a non-specific sin. It is used to cover all the sexual sins beyond adultery and homosexuality. They were already given in the OT. There was no need to rehash the entire list for the NT.

Are you really prepared to dismiss them simply because they aren't found in Leviticus?

I am not dismissing them at all. "Fornication" covers all those sexual sins that were specifically stated in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy. I am not dismissing anything but dogma. Nowhere in the OT will you simply find premarital sex universally condemned. The Law was given in the OT. I can't even recall one Law that was added in the NT except perhaps the elimination of hating one's enemy. However, the golden rule is clearly stated in the OT and that does address such an item. So it was not a new Law. It just did away with an existing Law to hate an enemy. Even the Laws that people think were added in the NT were actually contained in the OT. I have not done a study on the elimination of Polygamy so I cannot comment on such an idea.

There is no commandment against premarital sex in the bible. There is always something attached to it that is forbidden. Such as another man's fiance, a relative, the ex-wife of a Father....

Provided, of course, that you can pick and choose which commandments are really commandments.

Not at all. I consider my study in the matter to be completely honest. I have searched the proof texts given by other fundamentalists. They are the ones that are picking and choosing. They ignore it when Paul says to not marry a virgin (not that it's a sin to do so), and then add this nonexistent Law against premarital sex. There have been plenty of unbiblical "laws" people have clung to for whatever reason over the centuries.

So, if the Bible says something is a sin, it's a sin. If you have a problem with that, maybe you ought not to call yourself a fundamentalist.

Indeed. So I am a fundamentalist because when something is called a sin I call it a sin. How can I judge and condemn someone as a fundamentalist for something that isn't even a sin? Maybe I should start condemning people for being in the military or drinking alcohol or marrying virgins. I would be wrong to do THAT wouldn't I? It would be a sin for me to condemn someone for something that isn't a sin.

48

Jehovah & the Military

by MMTP in

i'm not quite sure how to start this one, i'm new here and feel a bit of an outsider.

my sisters and mother are jehovah's witnesses and have been as long as i can remember.

i however, chose to follow a different path.

starScream

Hi MMTP, welcome. I have some knowledge on the subjects in which you have proposed

Joker,

One must be a follower of Christ, not just a believer. So, yes, joining the military is not correct.

That is exactly the type of unsupported statement that could lead MMTP to his present concern which may conflict with his ability to execute his position and possibly lead to a court martial. Way to go joker!

Let us see what Jesus Himself said.

A ROMAN ARMY OFFICER approaches him for a miracle. Matt 8:5-11. The Centurion explains that he knows if Jesus just says the word his servant shall be healed. Jesus praises this man's FAITH. He said he has seen no faith as great as this anywhere in Israel. How is it we are saved? Jesus goes on. The very next thing he says is that many from eastern parts and western parts will sit down at the talble with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of Heaven. The only way to explain that statement is that he was saying this officer would be in the kingdom.

Did Jesus say, "away from me ye military dog!!!" no he did not. He praised the man as the one with greatest faith!!!

John 20:27 "stop doubting and believe." -Jesus

John 20:28 "My Lord and My God." -Thomas expressing his faith in Jesus.

John 20:29 "Because you have seen you have believed? Blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed." -Jesus

So those that have believed are not cursed they are blessed. Jesus praises the Roman Army Officer. He does not curse him. He announces that he shall sit down at the table in the kingdom. Wheras the JWs would simply curse people for being in the military.

If when your term is up you decide that the military is not for you or that God does not want you in the military then move. Until then realize you have taken an oath and Jesus is not against that oath.

MMTP, if you are still reading this I encourage you to get a good bible translation. Not the JW bible. Get an NASB (new american standard bible).

The JW doctrines are totally wrong and are not in the bible. The JWs have altered the bible so that the true doctrines are cloudy. However a legitimate translation demonstrates the orthodox teachings of Christianity. The JWs doctrines for the most part aren't even in their bible. As a matter of Fact the JW bible still teaches the orthodox version of Christianity.

You want to know that you are saved MMTP? Ask Jesus that the blood he shed forgive your sins and that he be the Lord of your life. Ask him to dwell in you. Realize that he is the TRUE SON OF GOD and THE TRUE SON OF MAN. He is God in the flesh, one with the Father.

20

What's your ideal scenario for the fall of the WTBTS?

by doodle-v in

i've seen a few posts where someone states that they want the org to "go to hell" or "burn in hell".

the org has always had a "likely" chain of events for the armegeddon, you know, babylon the great being destroyed and by the wild beast and the the wild beast turning on the witnesses, the start of the great tribulation, armegeddon, and then the thousand year reign (or something like that).

so... what would you like to see happen to the org?

starScream

shamus,

It's not that I want to see violence done to them. All Im saying is let them be hyposcrites for accusing the Government of not going to war to protect them while accusing Christians of going to war to protect them. I would prefer the simple exposure myself but I don't think any amout of exposure would reduce their numbers by more than 75% and even that is probably a stretch.

The situation i came up with was meant as poetic justice. The US can avoid going to war and losing lives by simply not stopping the enemy from overrunning an ORG that condemns it for stopping an enemy with force to begin with. The Government would basically be doing what the ORG tells it that it should do. Not go to war. The ORG has to deal with the reality of what happens to a nation that refuses to protect itself.

20

What's your ideal scenario for the fall of the WTBTS?

by doodle-v in

i've seen a few posts where someone states that they want the org to "go to hell" or "burn in hell".

the org has always had a "likely" chain of events for the armegeddon, you know, babylon the great being destroyed and by the wild beast and the the wild beast turning on the witnesses, the start of the great tribulation, armegeddon, and then the thousand year reign (or something like that).

so... what would you like to see happen to the org?

starScream

Well it is really quite simple. They need to taste their medicine. One of their highest crimes in my opinion is that they condemn Christians for not condemning people for simply being in the military.

So my ideal fantasy would be self imposed by the org. The United States is attacked by a somewhat formidable opponent. The Watchtower is still condemning Christianity by saying "You ALL go to war."

So the United States Government negotiates with the enemy that they may harm nothing, encroach no where but go to all the WTS buildings make war on the JWs, plunder their homes, bank accounts, buildings, steal their cars and sell-off all their realestate kill or kidnapp any JW. The US government shall say to the JWs,

"Look, we sure as hell wouldn't want to do something so unchristian as to protect your worthless asses!"

72

Sex in the New Book "Learn from the Great Teacher"

by AlanF in

i just obtained a copy of one of the new releases from the summer jw district conventions, learn from the great teacher.

this book is oriented towards children, and frankly, is a stereotypical piece of propaganda from the "faithful and discreet slave".

in some ways the book is incredibly revealing, since it has to break down a number of ridiculous jw teachings into a form that even jw children can swallow, and when those teachings are put into simplest form their ridiculousness is evident to everyone but small children and stereotypically braindead jws.

starScream

I'm sure I am about to open up the floodgates here. First off, i condider myself to be a fundamentalist so don't go thinking im a liberal spousing every whim.

Where the hell does it say in the OT that you must be married to the person you are having sex with? I have searched, people. I just can't find that commandment. You wanna know what I did find?

Leviticus 18:7 "do not...have sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her."

okay don't have sex with mommy. It's a sin cut and dry. See how simple that was. Tell them not to do it, call it a sin and you have your proof text.

Lev 18:6 says to not approach any close relative to have sexual relations with them. I am the LORD.

Well once again we have proven something is a sin. Man it is easy to prove the things that are sins, especially when they are simply called sins!

(does this imply that we are to expect that people just approach other people to have sex)

If you must be married to a person to have sex with them couldn't you have made the book a little cleaner by just saying don't have sex with a person you aren't married to and then say don't marry mom, daughter, a man to a man........

I think we could. I find these passages totally unnecessary if you must be married to a person to have sex with them.

But where does it say do not have sex with a man or woman you aren't married to? It doesn't. Makes it kind of hard to prove that its a sin from the Torah (LAW).

I had this idea when I was a JW kid that in the OT it wasn't a sin for people to have sex if they weren't married but that now it is. My mother told me, "oh no if two people were caught in the field and they weren't married they were stoned to death."

HA! I forget where it is but I read that. It says that if a man is caught having sex with another man's virgin fiance' they are put to death. deut 22:23 is a similar occurrence.

You would think this oh so common wickedness of pre-marital sex would be condemned as a sin in the bible if it were such. Well I also read this scripture. Forgive me I can't find it, I am looking for it, but i have found it before and I know exactly what is says.....

'If two unmarried persons are having sex and the man spills his seed into the woman then he must take a ram(?) to the priest to make the atonement.' death by stoning? No sir. What if he pulls out in time? No harm no foul I guess. It never even mentions such an "abomination." Remember what they say about homosexuals? They have departed from "the natural use of the flesh." So man and woman getting down is the NATURAL USE OF THE FLESH? That is what it said folks I did not make that up.

Leviticus 19:20-22 'if a man has sex with the slave girl who was promised to another man, they are not put to death. He must present a ram for a sin offering to the priest and his sin shall be forgiven.' So what if she wasn't promised to another man?!?!?!??! SILENCE.

Most JWs or Married Christian fundamentalists in general will eagerly turn to vague passages in the NT which have incorporated the word "fornication" and say see!!! it is a sin!!! First of all the word that is translated as fornication does not mean pre-marital sex. It is a generalistic word that includes numerous sexual sins. Is everything that Paul "commanded" a real commandment?

If so then it is a sin for any Christian to marry a virgin. Paul said "if a woman is a virgin DO NOT MARRY HER. But if she is not a virgin and you are engaged to her then go ahead and marry." don't have that citation available but I will look for it after I find the OT one about spilling the seed.

No, I don't blame the dubs for saying it is pleasing to the demons when unmarried persons fondle eachother. The bible certainly never encourages such activities and since nearly all of Christendom condemns it the Watchtower being the pious institution that it is could never be expected to challenge such "Law." If Christendom didn't teach it as a sin I would expect the WTS to invent it myself though. Just one more reason we are the only true religion!!!!!

On a personal note. Im not trying to encourage people to have pre-marital sex. Since I have been born again 2 1/2 years ago, although I am at liberty to do so, I have not had sex. I am not married. If I do in the future I know that I am breaking no commandment from God. That is as long as she in not another man's virgin fiance', the virgin daughter living in her father's house, a prostitute, a close relative, a former wife of my father's, another man's wife, or menstruating. I think that about cover's it. Most of that is in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, although the prostitue refference was in Paul's writings.

11

Misplaced Loyalty

by YoursChelbie in

do you know of a person who has been treated really bad in a marriage and yet still remains loyal to that person even after the marrriage has ended?

this has puzzled me for some time.

why do some people have an abnormal, misplaced loyalty for another human who has caused them so much harm?

starScream

My Mom is amazingly loyal, or as i like to call it, NAIVE.

She should have gotten a divorce 20 years ago but she hung on until 9/2001. She began the divorce proceedings with a restraining order because my father tried to kick her out of the House at gunpoint when he realized she was really going to divorce him and couldn't changer her mind. He violated the order came to the house when no one was home and took the TV, VCR, Computer, our guitars and a few other big ticket items. He brought the stuff back because he realized that it wasn't a good idea. Anyhow he continued to act like a total psycho and she TOOK HIM BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Once this happened her restraining order became invalid and once again she was stuck with him in the house. That was a pretty miserable experience. Ultimately she decided she wasn't going to take him back and amazingly divorced him.

What I can't comprehend is how she can be so naive as to believe the WTS is God's organization. I left at about 16. I have shown her from just about every angle that the watchtower is false, their beliefs are completely dogmatic and the bible completely overturns ALL of their doctrines. It is her week will. She has no ability to make tough decisions. She has a major fear of standing on her own. My father controlled her mind somehow. Apparently even though he was a psycho from the time they were first married it took her 28 years to get rid of him.

After 50 years of being a JW and the ridicule she has faced for such, I dont think she will ever leave. No matter what I show her from the bible or the WTS's own literature nothing phases her. she still blindly goes to every meeting and spouses every ludicrous doctrine. Just a few weeks ago she tried tell one of her friends in my presence that JESUS DIDN'T DIE ON A CROSS!!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Even when I was a JW I knew that was retarded.

24

Satan Had it easy! Does the bible make sense?

by Mecurious? in

my response to the thread above on do you still believe got me to thinking.

satan had it easy.

in genesis he was allowed to corrupt adam and eve and bring death to the whole human family.

starScream

Satan had it easy,

Yes the bible makes sense. If you have read it you would know he goes to hell.

9

Elizabeth Smart (and the Not-So-Smarts)

by Scorpion in

elizabeth smart.

false prophets like.

david mitchell or joseph smith!.

starScream

If I have to explain that a Christian attacking another religion's prophet on the grounds that "they cannot know" he was a "true prophet of god" is funny

It's not quite the same thing Abaddon. Mormons do not claim to be another religion. They claim to be Christian and based on the bible.

then there's no point having a dscussion.

I don't think that we are trying to have a discussion. We already know that you think we are stupid for having faith, Abaddon. our situation is however different than that of the JWs or Mormons. If you cannot see that than you need to develop some critical thinking ability yourself.

If you cannot see those things, you need to develop a critical thinking ability, as an inability to analyse what people say, and spot inherant contradiction or illogicities, means you are vulnerable to religious predators, who will pray upon your uncritical accepting nature for their own benefit.

I would respond to that but there are too many errors to make sense of what you are saying exactly.

I will just tell you my experience and let you be the Judge since you are so eager to judge me as naive. I studied with the Mormons when I was an Atheist. Yes I was a die-hard never surrender atheist. You could not defeat my atheist argument. Anyway, the Mormons wanted me to accept their book of Mormon and read a bunch of scriptures from their book. Their book did not give me the slightest reason to believe in it. They said that I should believe in it because of the 14 witnesses who testified that it was true, and that one of the witnesses was a teacher, so I should believe. I thought that was stupid. So I did not believe it. I accepted their arguements and had no reason to accept their arguements at all. I gave them a fair shot and they had nothing.

I only believe in God now because I challenged God to reveal himself in a specific way that specifically addressed my atheist argument. He did it in less than two weeks and it was not when I was studying any religion. I was not preyed on by anyone.

you can expect the Lord
Jesus to be coming one day soon!"

I don't believe that because Scorpion said it.

6

JW Chaplains

by RR in

hello apostates and apostatees:

i thought you might find these interesting.. .

just to make a long story short, the local elders in my community are part of the county police chaplain association.

starScream

JWs can also be fire fighters