bebu

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Posts by bebu

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  41

  Kicked out of JW site

  by Nordic in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  what i did was tell my wifes story on the site, not only did they delete the post but also kicked me out.

  so now i am df from the site, they are so loving.

  nordic

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  bebu

  Good grief. That sounds terrible!!!

  But one thing I would caution you about. I remember back in the early 90's there was a huge rash of people remembering childhood sexual abuse. Also, it seemed all the rage in certain areas of the country for people to remember "Satanic Ritual Abuse", very similar. These memories came back in therapy sessions, sometimes in dreams, or just visiting a site. Remember Rosanne Barr, and Tom Arnold? It seemed to become like a huge fad, and later SOME of these accusers began to realize that their memories were not reliable, but had been affected by leading questions by therapists, or by other subconcious thoughts and dreams. They then had to try to repair relationships that they had destroyed by false accusations.

  Your wife's abuse could have happened; but there is the possiblity it might be psychological. Please be very careful here; if you are not, you might cause unimaginable suffering without intention. Please know that I am not trying to dismiss or make light of this situation.

  As far as the website, sounds like you are really making trouble for their 'paradise'. I'm sorry that you were treated so rudely. You should have been allowed to stay and post.

  Please take care,

  bebu
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  22

  America is Babylon the Great?...What are the consequences to be

  by Brummie in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  this belief is a growing phenomena since 9/11, i did a search on google after someone mentioned on this board that they believe america is btgreat and it came up with pages in support of this view!

  this belief is also being pushed by false prophets like jack van imp, he also claimed that osma was the anti-christ shortly after 9/11.

  the consequences of pushing this doctrine will cause more fanatics to justify attacks against the usa or promote the belief "they deserve it", how sick.

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  bebu

  THere was another thread similar to this. Here is what I think:

  REV 17:6 I saw that the woman (BTG) was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
  When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

  This verse is the one that makes it hard for me to accept that BTG is the USA. Can you show me that the USA, more than any other nation, qualifies this way? I'm not being rhetorical. Whenever I wonder to myself if the USA fills this description (due to its economic position), I always come up against this verse, and decide that, if it IS the USA, it isn't right now. But if the USA starts to massacre Christians, then yes, it looks more likely.

  I think that it is still too early to make calls on this. I remember reading that Kissinger, Nixon, Eisenhower, Hitler, Stalin, the Pope, etc., all being named the anti-christ in the past century. As time rolls on, people move on to the next political target.

  The past 100 years have brought so many changes, so fast. If the US has an economic slow-down, and another country picks up the pace and replaces the US in economic strength (yes, it can happen!), who's to say that it wouldn't be a country that has such strong communism, fascism, or anti-Christian zealotry that things really swing in a way we could never expect right now.

  There is persecution going on in Islamic countries against Christians and other non-Muslim citizens. It used to be that communism persecuted the most Christians world-wide. It is now Islam. Governmental policies of Islamic governments prohibit proseltyzation of Muslims. Some permit arrest and even execution of converts and their converters. I'm not trying to make anyone angry, and I recognize that sometimes Christians fight back! But I think that as some of these countries are growing richer and stronger, one of these is more likely, in the future, to fully typify BTG.

  I think that our tendency is so strong to just "figure it all out" with what's at hand, we can get close, but still get it wrong. 2+2=5 is not correct, but it is a more correct answer than 2+2=10. Even so, it is still not correct, and shouldn't be made dogma.

  BTW, who's collecting all the 2 cents that everyone here keeps giving out?

  bebu
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  7

  Vacations

  by JH in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  .

  would you avoid taking a trip to a "not so friendly" foreign country just because you are american?.

  do you rather take your vacations in the us, instead of going abroad, because of fear of terrorism on americans?

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  bebu

  Only Canada. And since I'm learning how to blend in, I'm beginning to feel less fearful.

  -ay?

  bebu
• 
  7

  Misleading info on Islam

  by Iron Eagle in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hey.

  i just finished my letter to the writer of www.bible.ca.

  has anybody read all that they write about islam?

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  bebu

  This is one tough subject, and I think it's kind of like trying to walk along the edge of a knife.

  I usually cringe when people read a couple of articles about Islam (usually written by someone who read only a couple articles him/herself), and voila! A conclusion. This happens with both sides of any argument. Easy as rolling off of a log. Easy for me, so maybe I'll do it here by mistake!

  I've read most of the Koran (it got kind of boring and repetitious for me at about 80 percent thru, so I figured I'd probably hit the main parts by then.), but I'm not an expert. I've read some stories from the Haddith, that is, the sayings of Mohammed, and bits from some other historical collections they have. Often people atribute to the Koran what is not expressly written there (kill Christians, for example). However, when the sayings of Mohammed are understood alongside his own actions and the actions of his contemporaries, and subsequent followers, the interpretation of the Koran to mean an allowance (or even the duty) to kill people who refuse to convert becomes more clear.

  I think this is why so many kinds of Muslims exist. Many are more familiar with the Koran, not with the rest. The students in Cairo, attending various fundamentalist mosques, get the full-blown treatment: There are times when Mohammed acted mercifully; there are also times when he didn't; there are times when he was more tolerant; by the end of his life, he would give permission for his followers to execute anyone who decided that they wanted to return to Judaism or Christianity (or paganism). There are lots and lots of graphic stories!

  Also, the Koran itself gets frustrating, because it gives double sets of teachings, like ones for mercy, and ones for showing NO mercy for pagans. There is a special word that is used for this situation, and I forget what the darn word is. (Abrogation?) The word refers to the belief of Muslim clerics and teachers that the Koran was written first with one set of directions, and then later the newer revelations from God replaced the old revelation. (Hey, does this sound familiar?) There is division in Islam about which revelation came first, especially tolerant or intolerant verses. And so, some Muslims are very peaceful, and some get whipped into a frenzy by fanatical leaders. The fanatics' argument is that Mohammed was the greatest prophet, and so his own words and example are the best interpretation of the Koran. (And that would make sense to me if I were a Muslim, so perhaps I'd be a bit fanatical, too.) The others simply say that the Koran, not any other writing, is what they must live by.

  Anyway, this is a very basic explanation, not a research paper. The internet is a great resource for folks who want to learn more.

  Interesting thread!

  bebu
• 
  32

  Babylon the Great is NOT false religion.

  by proplog2 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is the short argument against the watchtower interpretation of babylon the great.

  (btg) .

  ) the watchtower claims that babylon the great is the world empire of false religion (wefr).

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  bebu

  REV 17:6 I saw that the woman (BTG) was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.
  When I saw her, I was greatly astonished.

  This verse is the one that makes it hard for me to accept that BTG is the USA. Can you show me that the USA, more than any other nation, qualifies this way? I'm not being rhetorical. Whenever I wonder to myself if the USA fills this description (due to its economic position), I always come up against this verse, and decide that, if it IS the USA, it isn't right now. But if the USA starts to massacre Christians, then yes, it looks more likely.

  I think that it is still too early to make calls on this. I remember reading that Kissinger, Nixon, Eisenhower, Hitler, Stalin, the Pope, etc., all being named the anti-christ in the past century. As time rolls on, people move on to the next political target.

  The past 100 years have brought so many changes, so fast. If the US has an economic slow-down, and another country picks up the pace and replaces the US in economic strength (yes, it can happen!), who's to say that it wouldn't be a country that has such strong communism, fascism, or anti-Christian zealotry that things really swing in a way we could never expect right now.

  There is persecution going on in Islamic countries against Christians and other non-Muslim citizens. It used to be that communism persecuted the most Christians world-wide. It is now Islam. Governmental policies of Islamic governments prohibit proseltyzation of Muslims. Some permit arrest and even execution of converts and their converters. I'm not trying to make anyone angry, and I recognize that sometimes Christians fight back! But I think that as some of these countries are growing richer and stronger, one of these is more likely, in the future, to fully typify BTG.

  I think that our tendency is so strong to just "figure it all out" with what's at hand, we can get close, but still get it wrong. 2+2=5 is not correct, but it is a more correct answer than 2+2=10. Even so, it is still not correct, and shouldn't be made dogma.

  BTW, who's collecting all the 2 cents that everyone here keeps giving out?

  bebu
• 
  7

  Why I'm here: Non-JW seeking advice

  by bebu in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as i've mentioned in an earlier post, i am not a jw.

  my dear neighbor is.

  we get along so great, i was surprised when i learned that dubs were not supposed to have "worldly" friends.. this relationship kind of started by accident.

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  bebu

  Thanks all, for the excellent advice.

  I think the next topic that comes up will definitely be the UN scandal, with copies of things to back it up.

  Rome wasn't built in a day... yes. I've realized that there was NOT going to be a quick way to loosen her from the WT jaws. She's been in for 30+ years, and probably has heard PLENTY of theological arguments, which is why I've pretty much avoided this area.

  I'm in this for the long haul! She will always be my friend.

  Thanks again, folks,

  bebu
• 
  7

  Why I'm here: Non-JW seeking advice

  by bebu in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as i've mentioned in an earlier post, i am not a jw.

  my dear neighbor is.

  we get along so great, i was surprised when i learned that dubs were not supposed to have "worldly" friends.. this relationship kind of started by accident.

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  bebu

  As I've mentioned in an earlier post, I am not a JW. My dear neighbor is. We get along so great, I was surprised when I learned that dubs were NOT supposed to have "worldly" friends.

  This relationship kind of started by accident. We saw each other briefly a few times over the first years we lived here, but one day when I happened to chat just a little bit with her, I noticed she was NOT looking well. When I asked if she was truly alright... she just collapsed into tears. Troubles all around, mostly in marriage with a very abusive husband. (I can't give details, because I am learning that lurkers might even jeopardize this friendship!) The elders are failing her in regards to her husband. She is so frustrated with them. But she keeps hope in the org.

  Over the past couple of years, we've hardly talked about religion. I didn't bat an eye when she first told me she was a witness --but only since I'd somehow had a clue about it earlier. More recently we've had some interesting discussions about doctrine, but I have tried to avoid that, at least for the beginning. What little I have discussed was asking her to give some supporting resources for the 607 BC date for the destruction of the temple. No word back about this yet....! Oh, and also I asked her some questions about how she felt about disfellowshiping, just so I could understand how she felt. (Wow, have I learned a lot about it from this board...) She felt certain that it was right to do, and especially since whoever got baptised KNEW that there would be a consequence like this... (which, come to think of it, since she was baptised well before 1980, she herself did not realize that this was a consequence she could bring upon herself.)

  She recently told me that she had been waiting for ME to bring up religion. I was surprised to hear her say that, since JWs pounce on anyone (seems). But what I suspect is that she hopes she has found a REAL friend, and there's no strings attached here, and she doesn't want to rush into making me "reject" her or otherwise put a damper on our friendship. Of course, there isn't a disfellowshiping to be feared from me--but perhaps she might get threatened with it over having too close of a relationship! I don't know. She doesn't have to leave the dubs to be my friend.

  She has several friends in her church, but I am almost certain that I am her best friend, since after a very bizarre turn of events landed her in jail a couple years ago, my husband and I were the only ones who bailed her out. And I am NOT bragging here, actually--she is such a enjoyable person, I invite her over often for coffee or lunch or dinner with my family (she has no kids). She has met almost all my relatives, and they love her, too. She's as old as my mom, and we are almost like sisters. Our prayer group at church know her by name, as we pray for her and her situation from time to time, and all look forward to meeting her there some day. She's got blinders the size of barns, but she's got a heart of gold. She takes anti-depressants, which I've just learned is not uncommon for JWs.

  Now, I've talked with JWs before (even went thru their little book study thing 'way back in 1980's); I've spent some good (and some useless) hours talking with Mormons who come to my door. (Hey, if you come to my door, you have just given me permission to share with YOU. And I have done a lot of research for these doorknockers.) But this woman is truly my friend. She genuinely desires to serve God, I believe, and this is why we get along so well in spite of obvious differences. There are differences between these situations. If I am right, it will be a matter of time before she has a crisis of conscience.

  I want to do all I can to help get free. It has been incredibly helpful for me to come to understand JW experiences, trials, fears, and other odds and ends (really ODD odds and ends, I might add!), so that I can recognize what she might be dealing with, and how I can be prepared to help her better at certain points. I have appreciated reading your thoughts and ideas very much.

  Now here is my question to you folks who have nothing better to do than live online and read this.. If you could give advice about what a non-JW should do (realizing I'm not her relative), what would you say? Or, think about yourself, during the time you were an active JW. What attitudes, actions, or words do you think made the biggest difference to you, from non-JWs? Was it arguments? Was it something else? What acts of kindness seemed the most important to you? What should be absolutely avoided, if possible?

  Here's an example. At one very difficult point last year, where there was no simple solution, I urged her to really pray about a matter, really asking direction from God. Now, lately reading here how elders just used a mantra of "more service, more prayer" as a bandaid fix for tough situations, I wonder if I just sounded like a broken record she's heard before. (I still think my advice for this instance was proper, and not a parroted line. But now I see how this may have triggered guilt for her.)

  As for me, I really think demonstrating genuine love is most important.. I was a nominal Christian, until I met a guy in college who was the nicest, kindest person I'd ever met (he was married, and faithful to his wife--I was JUST a friend!). He was the most authentic Christian I'd ever met in my lfie. Was unashamed of Christ; and didn't give me a funny look because of my denomination (Catholic). Absolutely encouraged me simply to do the thing Christ would do. Made me feel able to speak honestly. After 4 months of working with this guy, I ended up prying out of him where he was going to fellowship! I'm not Catholic anymore due to some doctrinal disagreements, but I'm not anti-Catholic as I've met some pretty impressive Catholics since. The verse I can meditate on forever is, "Love Never Fails." ('Bernie' is still a walking saint._

  ...So again: What kind of actions/words/intervention do recommend for an outsider to help a JW friend? How would you answer, "If only somebody had...." (Or, "If only somebody hadn't..."?)

  Because, I am somebody, and if you can please help me out, I'll try to help her "out" through your best input.

  Thanks so much in advance.

  bebu
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  22

  Was Jesus the SON......or.....the SUN?

  by gumby in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  christians out there can reflect on this for awhile if you care.

  "jc in the sky"

  sun-god jesus (christos helios) in fiery chariot - 3rd c. tomb mosaic, below st peter's, rome

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  bebu

  ...Here's the meat of Lewis' thoughts (see above for link)

  ...(D)oes not the Christian story show this pattern of descent and re-ascent because that is part of all the nature religions of the world? We have read about it in The Golden Bough. (1) We all know about Adonis, and the stories of the rest of those rather tedious people; is not this one more instance of the same thing, "the dying God"?

  Well, yes it is. That is what makes the question subtle. What the anthropological critic of Christianity is always saying is perfectly true. Christ is a figure of that sort. And here comes a very curious thing. When I first, after childhood, read the Gospels, I was full of that stuff about the dying God, The Golden Bough, and so on. It was to me then a very poetic, and mysterious, and quickening idea; and when I turned to the Gospels never will I forget my disappointment and repulsion at finding hardly anything about it at all. The metaphor of the seed dropping into the ground in this connexion occurs (I think) twice in the New Testament, (2) and for the rest hardly any notice is taken; it seemed to me extraordinary. You had a dying God, Who was always representative of the corn; you see Him holding the corn, that is, bread, in His hand and saying, "This is my Body", (3) and from my point of view, as I then was, He did not seem to realize what He was saying. Surely there, if anywhere, this connexion between the Christian story and the corn must have come out; the whole context is crying out for it. But everything goes on as if the principal actor, and still more, those about Him, were totally ignorant of what they were doing. It is as if you got very good evidence concerning the sea-serpent, but the men who brought this good evidence seemed never to have heard of sea-serpents. Or to put it in another way, why was it that the only case of the "dying God" which might conceivably have been historical occurred among a people (and the only people in the whole Mediterranean world) who had not got any trace of this nature religion, and indeed seemed to know nothing about it? Why is it among them the thing suddenly appears to happen?

  The principal actor, humanly speaking, hardly seems to know of the repercussion. His words (and sufferings) would have in any pagan mind. Well, that is almost inexplicable, except on one hypothesis. How if the corn king is not mentioned in that Book, because He is here of whom the corn king was an image? How if the representation is absent because here, at last, the thing represented is present? If the shadows are absent because the thing of which they were shadows is here? The corn itself is in its far-off way an imitation of the supernatural reality; the thing dying, and coming to life again, descending, and re-ascending beyond all nature. The principle is there in nature because it was first there in God Himself. Thus one is getting in behind the nature religions, and behind nature to Someone Who is not explained by, but explains, not, indeed, the nature religions directly, but that whole characteristic behaviour of nature on which nature religions were based. Well, that is one way in which it surprised me. It seemed to fit in a very peculiar way, showing me something about nature more fully than I had seen it before, while itself remaining quite outside and above the nature religions.... bebu
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  50

  Favorite authors?

  by bebu in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  first, i never was a jw, but since a dear friend of mine is one, i'm here to learn from the human elements in order to give her quiet assistance in leaving someday (soon, i hope).... i love reading.

  my favorite author thru the years has been cs lewis.

  i read narnia in hs, and loved the last book the best (last battle).

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  bebu

  I like to read Edgar Allen Poe right after Robert Frost. Or Frost right after Poe.

  ...I am trying to figure out the relationship here! Poe and Frost? Is this like taking a hot shower and then turning on the cold, or vice versa?

  I love Robert Frost poems too. Also Ogden Nash (yeah, I know, silly!)

  I also love Norse mythology (tho' forgotten a lot of it); I think it was because the illustrations in that school library book were SO awesome. Made Greek mythology seem boring--no pictures in that book! (I appreciate Greek mythology better now. Don't need the pics.)

  bebu
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  2

  An interesting website and musings on GW2 vs WW2

  by Deleted in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i am a cooing hawk.

  i considered myself a conscientious objector (not a pacifist) when i was borg - how clever we all were with our turns of phrase.

  anyway, i am finding the kurdish people and culture really interesting, as are so many cultures in the area are.

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  bebu

  I disagree with heathen about the people who frequent (or lurk) on this board. There are many who do not feel the Bible is worth discussing. But since there is a large cross-section here, there are many who do find the Bible very relevent.

  I think it's always interesting to learn historical information. The Kurds are interesting, especially now. I think that diary is a great possession.

  bebu