JT,
Given your history, where do you think the money goes? There is no doubt in my mind that the WT is building up a huge empire of cash and assets (such as the Patterson farm, Stanley Theatre, etc.) The question is, why? If the motivation were genuine, the wealth would be distributed more evenly among the congregations worldwide, and yet even the US congregations seem to barely have enough to cover their mortgages.
Posts by gcc2k
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21More Watchtower Begging And Dumbing-Down
by metatron inthe latest kingdom ministry (may) has a few changes.
first, it has an insert called "international kingdom hall building in some european lands" - designed to extract more $ from the friends.
the announcement section tells people how to write checks payable to "jehovah's witnesses" for donations - but...
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gcc2k
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Quote from the WT, i.e. Yoga. Opinions?
by unique1 in"so once again we ask: 'can yoga be practiced simply as a physical exercise to develop a healthy body and a relaxed mind, without any involvement with religion?
' in view of its background, the answer would have to be no.
ok, i know yoga comes from a religious background, but i have been taking a yoga class for several months, and if there was any thing religious i would have stopped the class, but there is nothing.
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gcc2k
Megadude,
Not sure I understand your question. My wife was semi-horrified that I would take a Yoga class, saying it's a religious practice. I told her "nonsense, it's just stretching" but have been trying to think about it objectively.
I'm in a religious limbo at the moment, and certainly not searching for anything. But, I have to admit that from what I've seen about yoga, it could lead into a spiritual, as well as physical, practice. It's no coincidence that a local yoga studio is called "The Yoga Way".
I don't think I can truthfully say to my wife "I'm taking this class because I am confident that there are no spiritual or religious undertones." Contrast that to say acupuncture or herbalism, which both have similar origins, but in practice have no religious undertones that I am aware of.
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New Light on the United Nations (U.N.) (Scarlet Beast)
by UnDisfellowshipped inthere appears to be "new light" in the latest watchtower magazine (june 1st 2003 issue).
several watchtower publications for the last 50+ years have said that the united nations (u.n.) organization ("the scarlet-colored wild beast" of revelation) would definitely be the organization that will carry out jehovah's judgment on "babylon the great" (false religion), and then, under satan's [gog of magog's] direction, the united nations organization would become "greedy", and try to attack the remaining remnant of the "anointed" jehovah's witnesses and their companions, the "great crowd" of "other sheep", and then jehovah and jesus would destroy the united nations organization, along with everyone else who was not a jehovah's witness.
here is a quote that shows this: .
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gcc2k
No activity on this thread today? Who's got the real story?
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Quote from the WT, i.e. Yoga. Opinions?
by unique1 in"so once again we ask: 'can yoga be practiced simply as a physical exercise to develop a healthy body and a relaxed mind, without any involvement with religion?
' in view of its background, the answer would have to be no.
ok, i know yoga comes from a religious background, but i have been taking a yoga class for several months, and if there was any thing religious i would have stopped the class, but there is nothing.
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gcc2k
Have you ever taken a kickboxing class? You can do the cheesy aerobic type, taught by fitness instructors who only focus on getting a good sweat and moving to the beat. Or, you can take it from a real martial artist, who will focus on your form, correct your punches and kicks, etc.
In the yoga classes I've been taking, the instructor dims the lights almost to darkness, we focus for a few minutes on breathing and clearing the mind, and then from there into the yoga routines.
Again, I'm not posting to make up anyone's mind, that is for you to decide. But I see a conflict of beliefs.
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Quote from the WT, i.e. Yoga. Opinions?
by unique1 in"so once again we ask: 'can yoga be practiced simply as a physical exercise to develop a healthy body and a relaxed mind, without any involvement with religion?
' in view of its background, the answer would have to be no.
ok, i know yoga comes from a religious background, but i have been taking a yoga class for several months, and if there was any thing religious i would have stopped the class, but there is nothing.
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gcc2k
I am still disagreeing, and not that I am not automatically taking the JW position but am viewing this openly.
I think it was Skeptic who made a comparision to a married man talking to a single woman. Could it lead to something? Perhaps, but just talking, the danger level is low. Now, let's put the two in an environment that is more dangerous, say taking a Shiatsu massage class together. Is something more likely to happen now that there is physical contact between and probably a lot less clothing? Yes.
I am beginning to view Yoga at the same danger level of visiting a Shaolin temple or attending a Jewish seder. All very unlikely to sway my beliefs, but clearly religious environments and settings. The comparisions to wedding rings or calendars don't apply here because those things don't have an pagan meaning in today's culture. But in the setting of a yoga class, it's possible and likely that the instructor is there to do more than help you stretch, to help you on your "journey".
Just because I want to do yoga (and I really do) doesn't mean that I can sit here and rationalize away that this is a form of false worship. You may argue that there is no such thing as false worship, and that is your option, but from the JW (and in my opinion) Christian perspective, yoga is not an acceptable practice.
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Quote from the WT, i.e. Yoga. Opinions?
by unique1 in"so once again we ask: 'can yoga be practiced simply as a physical exercise to develop a healthy body and a relaxed mind, without any involvement with religion?
' in view of its background, the answer would have to be no.
ok, i know yoga comes from a religious background, but i have been taking a yoga class for several months, and if there was any thing religious i would have stopped the class, but there is nothing.
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gcc2k
I agree that yoga can be religious or not. But, even if I am setting out to perform yoga just for the physical benefits, it could lead to more than that, consciously or not.
The "slightly pregnant" analogy seems to apply here. Certainly for someone who has given up religion altogether it would be easy to go in and just view it as a new experience. It seems that those who are trying to avoid non-Christian influence should have a problem with it. I've got to back the JW stance on this one, as much as I love my class.
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Quote from the WT, i.e. Yoga. Opinions?
by unique1 in"so once again we ask: 'can yoga be practiced simply as a physical exercise to develop a healthy body and a relaxed mind, without any involvement with religion?
' in view of its background, the answer would have to be no.
ok, i know yoga comes from a religious background, but i have been taking a yoga class for several months, and if there was any thing religious i would have stopped the class, but there is nothing.
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gcc2k
I've been looking into this a bit, since I was unaware that the WT forbids (or discourages?) yoga. Apparently many other Christian groups feel this way.
I ran across the following article, which makes some pretty good points. I am left with the impression that, no matter the physical benefits, it is essentially a form of false worship, or at least could lead to it. Although my instructor focus mostly on the physical aspects, she has also mentioned things like "I have been on many journeys". I'm curious to research acupuncture and see how that compares in terms of its origins and conflict with Christian beliefs.
The original is at http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/brr0104.html Rob's Reviews
A Ministry of the Institute for the Development of Evangelical Apologetics
(IDEA)
P.O. Box 60511, Pasadena, CA 91116; (626) 796-3368
Vol. 1, No. 4 - March 25, 2001
In This Issue:
Yoga Journal, April 2001Major Review
Does Yoga Conflict with Christianity?
A Response to Yoga JournalBy Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
Thurman, Robert A. F. "Reality Check: Renowned Buddhist scholar Robert
Thurman reflects on the Yoga Sutra and how we can know reality for
ourselves." Living Yoga column. Yoga Journal, March/April 2001, 67-71.
Life, David. "My Guru, My Self: Even a longtime student like Jivamukti Yoga
Center founder David Life gets nervous when his teacher comes to town."
Profile column. Yoga Journal, March/April 2001, 73-76.
Reder, Alan. "Reconcilable Differences: A Buddhist, a Christian, a Jew, and
a Muslim share how they blend yoga with their religious beliefs." Yoga
Journal, March/April 2001, 78-85, 156. Cover title: "The Question on
Everyone's Mind: Does Yoga Conflict with My Religion?"
What's wrong with this picture?
In the cover article for the March/April 2001 Yoga Journal, contributing
editor Alan Reder argues that yoga can be practiced by Buddhists,
Christians, Jews, and Muslims - and by implication, just about anyone else -
without any conflict with their religion. Yet the two major articles that
precede Reder's piece illustrate in unmistakable terms that yoga, in the
usual sense employed in the magazine itself, is incorrigibly religious.
Thurman: Yoga is for Reality, Man
In his article "Reality Check," Robert Thurman explains rather clearly the
Eastern religious roots of yoga. Oddly, he claims that he went East in
search of truth because Western civilization's "authorities all said you
could not know reality" (67). He soon narrows the field of Western
"authorities" to the modern materialistic philosophy that views the mind as
a mere function of the brain, a notion that implies that we really cannot
know ourselves. But of course - the same point has been made from the
Christian side by C. S. Lewis and others. Materialism implies that all of
our thoughts are the manifestation of material processes; there is no "I" to
know or be known. Unfortunately, this observation undermines the Eastern
monistic philosophy that Thurman favors as well, since in that tradition the
concrete existence of the individual "I" is also denied. The only
philosophy that can deliver true knowledge of the self is a biblically based
philosophy: human beings are concrete individuals with inherent meaning and
value because God created them, and we can know ourselves because God
created us with that capacity in order to make it possible for us to know
and love him. As John Calvin pointed out in the opening paragraph of his
Institutes of the Christian Religion, we cannot truly know ourselves without
also knowing God.
According to Thurman, the "gods" were unable to deliver happiness, so human
beings must attain it on their own (67, 68). This premise obviously implies
a repudiation of the biblically based religions of Judaism and Christianity,
especially the latter, according to which our eternal happiness is dependent
entirely on the grace of God in Jesus Christ.
Although Thurman sees some movement in the right direction in other
traditions, it is in India that he locates the path to truth and reality.
The civilization of India "created a science of the soul" in which the mind
is viewed as determining a person's happiness or suffering. This is an
experimental science in which the laboratory is the mind-body complex and
the "technology is yoga, the yoking of conscious attention to empirical
exploration, transformative discovery, and healing modification" (68). This
is quintessential New Age thinking: reinterpreting Eastern religious rituals
and practices as a science.
Thurman acknowledges that most of the "inner scientists" (his name for the
gurus and other movers and shakers in the development of yoga) belonged to a
religious tradition, of which he names the Buddhist, Jain, and Hindu
religions (68). The "inner scientist" on which he focuses is Patanjali, the
Hindu guru who authored the Yoga Sutra (69). Thurman explains that
according to Patanjali, "Yoga is the actuality of our union with the
absolute, the supreme reality of ourselves and everything, the blissful
void, freedom, or what is called Absolute Glory (Brahman, nirvana), God
(Ishvar), or Buddha, Reality Embodied (Dharmakaya), and many other names"
(70). The rest of Thurman's article expands on this understanding of yoga.
Suffice it to say, he has set forth the religious significance of yoga quite
plainly.
Life: You Are Your Own Yoga Teacher
David Life runs the Jivamukti Yoga Center in New York City. In his article,
Life tells about his guru's visit to New York. The religious role of the
guru for Life is established immediately. Life tells us, "I pray to a
picture of Pattabhi Jois every day," and he points out that the guru "backs
up everything with Sanskrit scripture" (73). According to Life, Pattabhi
Jois "pulsates with the auru of a true siddha, one who has acquired unusual
powers through dedication to yoga practice and teaching for more than 70
years" (74). Heady stuff, and Life admits that being around his guru makes
him nervous.
Each day after class the guru's followers lined up to take turns bowing down
to Guruji, touching the guru's feet and then touching their own heads. When
one of Life's students expressed uneasiness about bowing down to the guru,
Life told him, "Don't bow down to just a man . . . instead bow down to your
own Self that you recognize inside him. Then bowing down to him is no
different than bowing down before your own higher nature" (76). The student
complied, apparently deciding that he didn't have a problem worshiping
himself. After all, according to the pantheistic philosophy he was taught,
we are all one divine Self.
Reder: Yoga (ummmph!) Fits All Religions
Alan Reder, a "disaffected Jew" who followed the Swami Muktananda, admits
that he found the mystical chantings of the ashram more to his liking than
the traditional synagogue services of his youth (80). While admitting that
some people left the religion of their childhood to pursue the promise of
yoga, Reder points out that many people today are taking yoga with them to
their church or synagogue.
"In general," Reder says, "yoga is taught here in a way that strips away
much of its Indian context" (81). This is true, but the Indian context that
remains includes very specific religious elements. As Reder acknowledges,
"teacher and students" in yoga classes commonly greet each other with the
Sanskrit "Namaste," meaning, "I honor the Divine within you." According to
Reder, "Fundamentalist religious leaders of any major Western tradition
would probably say that pursuing a God within subverts worship of God
without" (81). No surprise that objections to mixing yoga with, say,
Christianity, are attributed to the nameless bogeyman fundamentalists. This
is classic move Number One in the religious apologetics of the left these
days.
Classic move Number Two is to invoke the opinions of erudite scholars of
religion who assure us that there's nothing to the views of those
narrow-minded fundies. So Reder offers a choice comment from Huston Smith,
author of the recent book Why Religion Matters, and refers to the arguments
for religious relativism mustered by Matthew Fox (One River, Many Wells) and
Jacob Needleman (A Little Book on Love). According to these scholars, "all
of the major religions at their deepest level offer alternate routes to a
common destination" (81). Translation: If you dig around long enough you
can find pantheistic mystics in the annals of every major world
religion-somehow proving that all religions at their core are mystical paths
to discovering the divine in ourselves. Believe it or not, this is the kind
of argument that passes for serious scholarship in religious studies these
days.
According to Reder, the world's religious institutions resist admitting this
mystical commonality with each other to protect their power (82). I almost
fell of my chair when I read this old chestnut. The fact is that the
Eastern religions actively promote the unity of all world religions. As for
the Western religions, the Big Three all resist such a claim because it is
contrary to the explicit teaching of their founders and scriptures. Moses,
Muhammad, and Jesus were all awfully clear on one point: there is only one
true God, and that God is the One who created the universe and who revealed
himself to Abraham. If Judaism, Islam, and Christianity give up this core
conviction, they might as well disband and tell their members to go become
Buddhists.
Reder completely misconstrues the problem here as the narrow-minded
unwillingness of religious people to allow that God could be known by other
names (84). This is not the issue at all. Christians are very comfortable
with the idea of God being known by many names-after all, the Bible uses
many names for God, and encourages us to translate biblical names into their
equivalents in other languages (e.g., "God" instead of Elohim or Theos).
But there are limits. I don't think, for example, that "Alan Reder" or "Rob
Bowman" or even "Pattabhi Jois" are among God's names.
Since the monotheistic religions are not likely to disband, what New Agers
are doing today is to try to transform them into Western versions of
Buddhism. Reder comes very close to admitting as much. He speaks of a
"true cross-fertilization" taking place as yoga becomes entwined as part of
the new spirituality of "progressive" religious elements in the Western
faiths (156). In other words, yoga is being used as a wedge in the door of
churches and synagogues to bring in mystical beliefs. The strategy:
reinterpret the Abrahamic faiths in mystical terms and dismiss all
resistance to this approach as the foot-dragging of power-hungry clergy or
reactionary fundamentalists.
In a sidebar, Phil Catalfo, a senior editor of Yoga Journal, asks, "Is Yoga
a Religion?" This is an easy one: of course not. But this is like asking
if prayer is a religion. No, but it is an incorrigibly religious practice.
The same is true of yoga. Catalfo tries to finesse this fact by an appeal
to the standard New Age distinction between religion and spirituality:
Spirituality, it could be said, has to do with one's interior life, the
ever-evolving understanding of one's self and one's place in the cosmos-what
Victor Frankl called humanity's "search for meaning." Religion, on the
other hand, can be seen as spirituality's external counterpart, the
organizational structure we give to our individual and collective spiritual
processes: the rituals, doctrines, prayers, chants, and ceremonies, and the
congregations that come together to share them (83).
Apparently, in Catalfo's mind one's "understanding" of the personal and
cosmic issues of life can somehow be separated from the "doctrines" of one's
religion. (A question: Is the distinction between religion and spirituality
a doctrine-and if so, is it therefore religious, not spiritual?) Another
translation would seem to be in order: What Catalfo probably means here is
that spirituality can be pantheistic and transpersonal even while one's
religion is monotheistic and interpersonal. In other words, the Jew can
somehow recite the Shema or the Christian recite the Nicene Creed while at
the same time having the "understanding" that these words are not to be read
"literally" and that God is really the divine in everyone. Of course, no
one suggests that Buddhists do their chanting while thinking to themselves
that what their Buddhist faith really means "at the deepest level" is that
they are lost sinners who can enjoy eternal life only through faith in Jesus
as their Savior and Lord! No-this "cross-fertilization" works only in one
direction, and the distinction between spirituality and religion is a
conjurer's trick to convince people that monotheistic religion can and
should accommodate pantheistic spirituality. The pantheistic religions,
meanwhile, may remain safely pantheistic in their spirituality as well.
Does yoga conflict with my religion? You betcha. Anything that tells
people that God cannot bring them ultimate happiness (as Robert Thurman
argued) conflicts with my belief that the chief end of human beings is to
love God and enjoy him forever. Anything that encourages people to worship
their yoga master (as David Life attested) conflicts with my belief that the
Lord is God and there is no other. Anything that encourages people to
believe that spiritual fulfillment can be attained in any religion (as Alan
Reder claims) conflicts with my belief that without Jesus Christ people of
all religions (even Christianity!) are lost.
(c)2001, Robert M. Bowman, Jr. Direct all correspondence to
[email protected]. -
126
New Light on the United Nations (U.N.) (Scarlet Beast)
by UnDisfellowshipped inthere appears to be "new light" in the latest watchtower magazine (june 1st 2003 issue).
several watchtower publications for the last 50+ years have said that the united nations (u.n.) organization ("the scarlet-colored wild beast" of revelation) would definitely be the organization that will carry out jehovah's judgment on "babylon the great" (false religion), and then, under satan's [gog of magog's] direction, the united nations organization would become "greedy", and try to attack the remaining remnant of the "anointed" jehovah's witnesses and their companions, the "great crowd" of "other sheep", and then jehovah and jesus would destroy the united nations organization, along with everyone else who was not a jehovah's witness.
here is a quote that shows this: .
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gcc2k
Let me assume the adversarial position as usual.
Let's assume that the WT did refine its doctrine here as new light. What's the benefit to the Society? Why would the average Witness come to see this as something sinister, and not just another refinement?
Keeping in mind that the articles are written and slated for publication months in advance, why would the Society be doing this? It could be to get back in the UN's good graces and continue NGO status, but if that was their goal, they would not have request termination of their status, since it confirms that their former actions were wrong.
I agree this is a big change, but most JWs will argue that it is not: "The Society is NOT saying that the UN isn't the beast, they are just saying that we can't know for sure."
I remember studying the Revelation book and thinking how speculative it all was, and how I could have come up with a book that was just as good and made as much sense.
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Is the WTBTS still an NGO????
by Tashawaa inis there proof?.
i know they "disassociated" from the dpi, but did they also disassociate completely from the un as an ngo?
i wrote and asked the wtbts, but never got a response.
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gcc2k
Who said that the WT is affiliated as an NGO with ANCA? The way I see it, there is a Holocaust Day that has been established, and the WT are participating in that as Holocaust survivors (presumably as an opportunity to witness to a large gathering - our brothers lost their lives for these beliefs, etc).
The ANCA is soliciting people to write to those NGOs (simply making the distinction of government vs non-govt, they don't mean UN NGOs here) to protest the EXCLUSION of the Armenian genocide from the Holocaust remembrance day.
Anything beyond this is speculation. As I posted on the thread about the recording, there is no conspiracy here, just speculation and misinformation.
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Critique volunteers for letter to the Society?
by Jourles ini have finally completed my letter to the society and am looking for a few volunteers to help critique it.
by suggestion from the elders, they said to keep it simple and to the point(one said to just bullet my questions and leave it at that).
well, i veered slightly off from those two parameters a bit but i had to do so to make my points clear.
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gcc2k
Would love to. [email protected]