Posts by 4horsemen

60

Cross or Stake, which is biblically true??

by butalbee in

can somebody please explain to me biblically where it says jesus died on a stake and not a cross?

need theological details, please.

prove your stakely beliefs...

4horsemen

Simple enough exercise.

Hold your arms over your head as you'd be if killed on a stick. Now hold them out to the sides as if on a crossbeam. Which is either to breathe?

Now imagine the same but bearing your full weight. Jesus was on the cross I think 3 hours. 2 at the least. Given the physical/mental/emotional stress prior to the crucification he would not have lasted more than a few minutes with his arms over his head.

The Romans did not go to all the trouble of crucification for their victims to die in 30 minutes.

83

Special Dub Words That Make You Go YUK!

by Englishman in

jw
friends

for me, the word was "loving".. great "loving" kindness.. great undeserved "loving" kindness!.

disfellowshipping is a "loving" provision.. when the wtbts want their accolytes to swallow another bitter pill, another restriction, another rebuke, another demand on time, the buzz word is "loving".. the "loving" word, is, to the average jw, the same as the mccabe nod is to the salesman.

the mccabe nod is used by salesman all the time to get the prospective customer to agree to something that he doesn't care for too much.

4horsemen

How about...

"friends" aka publishers with at least 10 hrs field service/month and perfect meeting attendance

or

"wait on Jehovah" for those times(true story)when 2 MS switch wives and families. Also, used when elder knows you're being slighted either with dogma neither you agree with or you dont agree with and he/judicial does.

"spiritually weak" = anyone with less than 10 hrs field service. Misses occasionaly meeting.

"no part of the world" = Catch phrase to avoid things like: health insurance, jobs other than landscaping,janitorial, pool cleaner, retirement, marrying a person who was not the first person you dated.

"apostate"= anyone who disagrees with WTBS. Anyone who says 'I think'. Anyone who reaches for the bible first rather than the Watchtower/Awake. Especially anyone who uses the Bible,history,or science, and common sense to refute the Watchtower/Awake.

My favorite?

Drum roll please....

"the truth(tm)" = The ultimate label and/or qualifer. Used when person suffers from some life event either random or self inflicted.
'Well Johnny went off to college ended up becoming a engineer, married then divorced some lawyer, I think he used to like alcohol. See what happens when you leave "the truth"?

Also great for gossip. "Hey hon, I saw Brother so-so at Home Depot. He was building something for his wife." Wife: "How is he? How old are his kids? Are they still in "the truth"? (appoved condition)

Particularly useful to justify one's good fortune. "Picked up another cleaning contract! And my kid just quit high school to home school and get his GED! It's great being in "the truth" and knowing the temporary things of this system are just a snare.

"85% of people dont care about your problems. The other 15% are glad you have them" Tommy Lasorda

13

I'm not who I think I really am.

by Mindchild in

jw
friends

there was a story i used to tell a lot about a scientist who worked in the nuclear power industry.

this scientist had a job of public relations and would go around to different groups around the country.

he was afraid to fly anywhere though, so the company provided him a chauffer to take him from city to city.. somewhere in the course of giving the same speech over and over again, the chauffer tells him: doc, ive heard you give this same speech now a couple of dozen times, and i have it memorized word for word.

4horsemen

Mindchild, the oft quoted saying...

I think, therefore I am.

Or is it

Farkel thinks therefore I am?

What do you think? For example, take Cygnus critique of you above. What if Cygnus had asked you what Farkel had? Would you have rejected his observation outright? Is it fair to say... probably?

It is better to be hated for who you are than loved for who you are not. But who are you? That is what this life is to find out.

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

4horsemen

Another question from Genesis...

God spoke of a "seeds" when he pronounced judgements on A&E and the serpent(Satan).

He said the serpent would bruise his seed(Jesus) in the heel, but his seed(Jesus) would bruise him(Satan) in the head.

How did Jah know that? It cant work both ways. Either he "knew" Adam would probably fail and Jesus would probably succeed or not.

What is this selective exercising of his power? A cop out.

And if he did know that Jesus would pass the test, what implications did that have?

That he "knew" Jesus better than Adam (along the lines of the father/daughter illustration above) so could better gauge what Jesus probably would do? How could that be? Did not God make Adam directly?

Also, by making that proclamation did that not take the starch of credibility out of Jesus' time on Earth? He could not fail? Or would not? Where is the free will if his actions after he has died faithful as a man before he even was a man was laid out?

But Adam was no spineless simpleton. Does not the Bible say he was not deceived? Of course being given the fruit and encouragement by a woman God created directly, Adam probably was not using his higher thinking abilities at the time.

If Genesis/God etc is in fact true, we are not much more than pawns in a cosmic chess game. Entertainment of deities. Karma, luck, destiny, call it what you will. But the line between Jehovahs and Satans game and our own responsibility is razor thin.

Side note. At the end of John (I think) John states that if all of Christs deeds were written down the world itself could not hold all the scrolls. If Satan has had such immense success using women and sex to cripple man (not to mention angels) why is there no real record of Jesus being tempted that way?

49

YoYo: proof?

by cynicus in

jw
friends

yoyo says:.

i wanted to prove to myself that what the watchtower says about apostates is true.. now what a refreshing idea!

am i correct in assuming that you did this also for other topics the watchtower has opinions on?.

4horsemen

Yo-Yo

It gets better.

If you(the WTBS) have misapplied either the chronology or understanding of Daniel what does that say of the year 1914?

But certainly an orgainization whose chronological exploits includes not realizing there is no zero year but counting it anyway, then realizing their error and revising the calculations for their most intrinsic date proclaimations, should not fear interpreting the dreams of a man who lived more than 2500 years ago.

78

To Danni: ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS

by You Know in

jw
friends

q 1: where does the bible say god's name is jehovah?

in all probability, the bible that you have does not have the name jehovah in it, anywhere.

we too have a fraternity, a brotherhood, gods family is what we are, and if anyone dishonors the congregation by conduct unbecoming a minister of god, shunning, or disfellowshipping as we call it, is gods means to deal with such ones.. q 7: how can a person isolate themselves if you chose to knock on peoples doors outside your religion?

4horsemen

My grandfather owns/lives on a farm in Nebraska. And from visits there and tours he's taken me on at the slaughterhouses and packing plants I can guarantee you this: if you eaten just about any kind of meat that you buy from the frozen section of your local grocery store you HAVE eaten that animals blood. As mentioned only certain meats or special preparations can guard against this. Now what?

I have not read all the posts in this thread but someone asked about DF'ing and marriage. Two thoughts. First, IF the WTBS could withstand the legal pressure of allowing DF'ing to break up a marriage to a 'wordly' person, it'd be a done deal. Second, in the late 80's they came up with some provision that could actually lay the grounds (ie, ease the Witness conscience for ending the marriage) for that very thing. Spiritual endangerment? I forget the wording. I think I still have the article.

Alan you wrote...

"As for JWs being dedicated to do God's will, that's just as big a fiction as the claim of a lot of other religions to do the same. JWs on the whole are in fact mainly dedicated to doing the will of JW leaders, who in turn tell them what they think God's will is. This is exactly the same as other Christian religions do, except that most of them don't think that their leaders are virtually inspired."

Exactly.

I remember this insight from when I was studying philosophy (warned against by the brothers) when I was in college(warned against by the brothers when it was fashionable to be warned against). The argument was should we do what God says is right because A)He is God or B) Because what is said is right? You see the slippery slope. What if God changes his mind?

Unfortunately we have seen this with men. "Imperfect" men to be certain but men nevertheless who claim God's direct guidance. Sad that from 1914 and on lives have be lived in quiet desperation not based on God's will, or "the good news of the Kingdom" but on the musings, interpretations, and "insights" of men.

"What luck for rulers that men do not think." -Hitler

37

Some of You Know's words are coming true

by YoYoMama in

jw
friends

i just read this in yahoo about the huge economic problems that argentina is facing: http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011219/wl/argentina_economy.html.

this is something that you know said that was going to happen and that it would be the start of future economic downfall all over the world.

4horsemen

YoYo Mama,

I say it again. 6 cents invested at the time of Christ compounded. Why does no one have anywhere near that amount of money? Inflation? No, debt. Credit eventually kills all great societies as world powers. Greece, Rome, Spain, U.K. The U.S.A is next.

When?

Who knows?

The problem is that the U.S dollar has become the world's currency. But fear not, if, that financial meltdown ever occurs, and your $ is worth a peso, rest assured two things will happen:

1)A new world power will emerge.

2)Their currency will be King.

In the interim, if you're nervous buy swiss francs. And gold.

64

To Larc: ON ECONOMIC STUFF

by You Know in

jw
friends

your essay is full of generalities, half truths and down right misinformation.

you craft words to minimize advancement and preach doom and gloom.

also, your hero, larouch is long on problems and short on solutions.

4horsemen

Just some random thoughts...

-There is actually more gold in the bowels of the Fed Bank in NY than in Fort Knox.

-Gold is one of the leading indicators of inflation. If you look at any monthly chart of gold you will see a sideways to declining graph. It is actually the increases in productivity and cheap(slave?) labor in other countries that has kept inflation in check. The price of gold has been stagnant which is in part why central banks have been quietly selling price spikes, to get out from underperforming returns.

-Demand for gold is fairly constant. Silver however is not. Example, Kodak a major commercial for silver. Its market demand was cut significantly and one day it will cease its silver consumption. All this brought about by the world of digital cameras. There is absolutely no reason to speculate in silver or be involved with it at all, unless you need it to produce your end product.

-The Fed is not taking rates to zero. So if you have thought about refinancing your mortgage dont try and time the bottom. This is close to it. The next stimulus can come from a variety of avenues. The problem is there is so much pork in the U.S. govt that any tax cut will cripple a program(s) that probably does help those intended. If the govt could ever be held accountable the pork programs could _easily_ pay for the public work maintenance necessary

-All industries eventually cycle. Growth, maturity, and inevitable decline. When 71% of Coca-Colas revenues come from _outside_ the U.S. how can they possibly keep making $$$ through increased sales, licensing agreements etc to justify a rising stock price. They cant. Eventually Coca-Cola will sell to all those who want it and demand will be flat. Expenses never are though, and so Coke must adapt or go out of business. Simple. Like IBM as you mentioned Iarc.

-Iarc, here is 2 increases in productivity for you. It took 30 years to get the processor(brain) in computers to 1gh. It took less than 2 years to get to 2 gh. Also, why the focus on economic productivity? The biotech world is sci-fi esque. The gentleman with the artificial heart lived 59 days before his recent death. Now, what would have George Harrison paid for 2 months of life? What would you give for 2 xtra months of life? This simply was not possible even 5 years ago.

"The problem with govt is those most qualified least want the job, and those least qualifed most often seek to get the job." -author unknown

64

To Larc: ON ECONOMIC STUFF

by You Know in

jw
friends

your essay is full of generalities, half truths and down right misinformation.

you craft words to minimize advancement and preach doom and gloom.

also, your hero, larouch is long on problems and short on solutions.

4horsemen

My post got cut off.

In short the tendencies of the world are for the most part found in WBTS. Explaining away the inconsistencies is no different than Greenspan opining on why Larouche prophecies dont have a snowball's chance.

Everyone gets what they want. Those in religion or those who buy shares in Enron. Each of us though have a responsibility to make certain they are not buying in to a house of cards. The kicker is it's ALL a house of cards.

I'll trade you 3 eggs and a head of lettuce for that Watchtower, You Know. Since my $$$ are worthless. I'll need the kindling since power companies are going to be bust. Good thing I own a farm. I guess.

Caveat Emptor

64

To Larc: ON ECONOMIC STUFF

by You Know in

jw
friends

your essay is full of generalities, half truths and down right misinformation.

you craft words to minimize advancement and preach doom and gloom.

also, your hero, larouch is long on problems and short on solutions.

4horsemen

You Know,

I enjoy reading your posts. I even share (some) of your financial perspective. That said, I want to draw a parallel to religion and get your comments...

Let us suppose your (financial)experts are correct: The time is coming to pay the piper. A worldwide financial depression!

But Jah does NOT show up.

Now what?

The parallel. Please, tell me exactly how or rather what is the difference between the current financial system where the strong abuse the weak, the clever trip up the unaware, the rich take from the poor AND say the WTBS?

The examples too numerous to mention. But just a few: Blood flip flop. Organ transplant inconsistency. Mexico/Malawi. The _failed_ end times prophecies. The obliteration of the 1914 "generation". The doctrine/procedure changes.

This is not a matter of straining the gnat and swallowing the camel. It is not even a question of faith. I have faith there is a god. His name might even be Jehovah. Though Yahweh is probably more accurate.

BUT, I fail to see the difference between the financial powers that be in their manipulations to further their own agenda AND the WTBS manipulations.

"Millions Living Now Will Never Die" Was this not a keynote speech? Even a book? Yes, there is new light. Yes, we must have faith. Yes, we are all imperfect men. Yes, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god.

However, when 99% of those millions are DEAD, and even if those who said such things suspected if not outright knew what they were saying was untrue, is this not similar to those stocks analysts who say buy when they are selling you their inventory?

It doesnt seem that the WTBS is any more enlightened than anyone else. Especially for a orgainization which claims Gods direct channel status. The arguments you make for the end of this financial system could just as easily be turned to a religious nature (with track history of misrepsentation(s)) and used against your religion. Or any other for that matter.