Posts by Abaddon

159

Logically consistent theories of ID exist.

by hooberus in

the following is one theory that comes from the id book the biotic messagehttp://www1.minn.net/~science/contents.htm by walter remine.

"an intelligent designer is necessary for the origin of life from non-life.

" the biotic message page.

Abaddon

Ah, hooberus... I won't bother asking you for your promised rebuttal of dendrochronolgy which (unless you can rebutt it) proves quite catagorically that the Flood was not global, and thus proves your key presupposition (the accuracy and literal nature of the Bible) is false.

You will simply make one of a variety of excuses, normally trying to blame me for your inability to rebutt critical evidence against your beliefs.

Having said that let us see what aspect of evolutionary science you're tilting at today; although you have no compettive theory and cannot even defend the hypothesis you do have, it doesn't stop your continual attack on one type of scientist (whilst benefiting from all the other types of scientist)...

Oh... you can't be bothered to argue your point but instead refer us to a book; are you incapable of putting the argument in your own words, lazy, or just trolling creationist-ID claptrap with no genine interest in a discussion?

Well, I'll be just a lazy; ReMine didn't understand how the software he was using worked and limited the population size to 6. There's more faults, here's some URL's;

http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/sep99.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB121.html

Don't bother quoting ReMines rebuttal; he ignores the error he made regaring the software and does not even respond to it being pointed out in criticism. Is your failure to respond to criticism of your beliefs based upon trying to emulate such a person? Maybe he figures he'll stop selling those books if he admits they are fataly flawed... funny how unprofessional behaviour and profit so often feature (as I have pointed out in previous discussion with you) in the lives of those people you choose to support to defend your beliefs.

As for your attempt to make this a discussion about logical consistency;

"An intelligent designer is necessary for the origin of life from non-life." The Biotic Message page. 40

Are you serious? You need to prove the statement before anything else. Just like you need to rebutt dendrochronology's refutation of Biblical accuracy before going on with your slavish devotion to Creationistic opinion.

You also have to prove your own statement;

It should be noted that the above theory deals specifically with life that has an origin from non-life, and thus there is nothing in the above that would also exclude the existence of an eternally existing designer (which of course would have no origin from non-life).

There is a difference between TYPING STUFF and making a decent argument.

I know you will grab at whatever straws you can in shoring up your belief sturcture but don't you think you need to address the faults in your belief structure that are pointed out to you in EVERY thread you come up with Creationist-ID claims?

At the very most you are phrasing the watchmaker argument in a way that suits you, and of course the wachmaker argument refutes itself, as does ID.

If complex things need designers, and designers are complex, designers need designers reducio ad absurdio...

But this has all been pointed out to your already...

Doesn't it strike you as strange your beliefs can only sound vaugely sensible if you ignore sound refutations or create very narrow hypothetical statements that unravel the minute someone looks at them?

135

Chemical weapons being used ... how about it America?

by Simon in

of course, as it's the murdering, war-crime-committing, un-mandate-ignoring, nuclear-non-proliferation-flouting israeli friends of america, they probably won't see it as an issue at all.. funny that ... they were dead keen on going to war over just the hint of this very thing but probably won't even condemn it.. it's about time that sanctions were imposed on israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6075408.stm.

.

Abaddon

Ross

I've never heard of anyone receiving a chemical burn without chemicals being present

So you're saying that a chemical which is intended to directly cause harm (either deliberately or inevitably) to a living being is a weapon, a chemical weapon?

Golly, who would have thought it?

(note I put in 'directly'; technicaly speaking bullets are CPR's; chemically propelled rounds. Pedant, me?

What sort? a male schoolteacher or one who makes a show of knowledge or one who is unimaginative or one who unduly emphasizes minutiae in the presentation or use of knowledge or a formalist or precisionist in teaching?

Do I have to get a permit from the UN to poison ants? I'm confused...

16

Melaleuca anyone?

by buffalosrfree in

jw
friends

i have recently been the recipient of a 30 plus minute presentation via phone of the melaleuca home based business opportunity.

what i would like to know is there anyone who uses the board that has any experience with them.

they are based out of idaho falls, idaho and before i even contemplate getting involved i intend to do some heavy researching all you comments to this effect would be greatly appreciated.

Abaddon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melaleuca_%28company%29

Maybe not as bad as Amway but does that make it a good idea?

Logic and maths can show that all such organisation have high turn-over rates. Some people try it and do well and get knock-on comission for their Bible-studies, er, conversions, er, whatever. Most make little or no money - but make money for those further up the chain.

This is an unspoken part of the business model; part of the profit it relies upon to make some people money is in picking-up people for a short period who work for others profit at no return for themselves.

I've seen people invovled with similar companies ending up with a garage full of stuff they can't shift.

I'd check the references of the Wiki carefully before deciding. We all know from experience how easy it is for a competent well-prepared speaker to make a sack-of-shit smell sweet when speaking to an audience who really want it to be true.

That is the kicker; your motives. If this is a genuine business opportunity, fine. If this is a get-rich sceheme then, if it is so easy, how come so few people ARE rich? If you really want an easy option, this will influence your judgement of an apparent easy option; it's like guys find women they KNOW want to sleep with them more attractive than a girl of the same appeal who DOESN'T want to sleep with them. That which we desire that seems easy oft seems sweater than the boring work-get paid model.

All the best!

135

Chemical weapons being used ... how about it America?

by Simon in

of course, as it's the murdering, war-crime-committing, un-mandate-ignoring, nuclear-non-proliferation-flouting israeli friends of america, they probably won't see it as an issue at all.. funny that ... they were dead keen on going to war over just the hint of this very thing but probably won't even condemn it.. it's about time that sanctions were imposed on israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6075408.stm.

.

Abaddon

The BBC is pretty good, but in the past five years or so I really find the only way to get an overview is use multiple news sources from multiple countries.

That is not to say I think the BBC are biased against Israel. For a start, the attitude toward Israel would not differ if Israel was Christian, Islamic or animist.

There IS a sympathy toward the Palestinians. They are a dispossessed people subjected to the sort of land confiscation, relocation and ethnic cleansing that Native Americans could identify with. They are facing a country that despite its small size has one of the top-ten most lethal military forces in the world. They are victims of massive Western double standards. They are used a a pawn in a power-play by their co-religionist neighbours just as much Israel is seen as a important strategic ally (i.e. a pawn with teeth).

But the paramilitaries only make it worst for themselves, and are as savage to Palestinians that they get pissed with as to Israelis. Just as in many Arabic counties, they squeal when their rights are violated by the Israelis but don't make nearly the fuss they should at human rights violation by their co-religionists - but in the socially-politically backward Arabic world this is common (where were all these European-resident Muslims so pained by the deaths of Iraqis when the Iraqis were being killed by a despot??).

But if you waved a magic wand and changed the religions of the the protagonists and nothing else, things would carry on just as before.

Pay too much attention to religion in this and you might not notice the wood is comprised of dis-similar trees.

A far clearer picture of some of the problems of reaching a stable territorial situation is gained by examining water rights in the area; try "water Israel Palestine" (without quotes) as a search string if you want to know more.

I went to school with an Iranian boy who, at 14, had seen service as a military irregular. My home city had regular terrorist attacks for several decades (nothing like Israel though... ). And I can understand why someone seeing such dreadful things should be so firm in their opinions. I can ALSO understand how many Palestinians who have committed no crime yet suffered destruction, death (not their own obviously), and economic malt-down due to Israel being equally firm in their opinion.

At one point I thought a good solution was to ship the Palestinians to Northern Island and the Unionists to Palestine. I've also considered (for obvious reasons facetiously) that making the Palestinians and the Israelis swap their children could be effective. Old Gaddafi's idea of merging the two countries is fun too.

But a multiplicity of nations basically giving Israel a clear deadline to reach an acceptable (to the majority of Palestinians yet retaining future viability of both countries) settlement.

I've also thought about writing a book where some people get so pissed off they nuke (with ample warning) Jerusalem as a cursory lesson to religious nut-jobs the world over. Maybe they get carried away and throw start going down a list comprising Salt Lake City, Brooklyn, Rome, Amritsar and Banares.

The old Dubbies would piss themselves with delight; "See! Religion is being destroyed!!"

But then it isn't about religion, not really.

135

Chemical weapons being used ... how about it America?

by Simon in

of course, as it's the murdering, war-crime-committing, un-mandate-ignoring, nuclear-non-proliferation-flouting israeli friends of america, they probably won't see it as an issue at all.. funny that ... they were dead keen on going to war over just the hint of this very thing but probably won't even condemn it.. it's about time that sanctions were imposed on israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6075408.stm.

.

Abaddon

czar

There was a time, perhaps, when the rantings and personal attacks would have gotten to me.

But now you're too busy ranting and attacking entire religions for the crimes of a minority to let anything like other people's disgust at your attitude to make you pause and actually think about what you say. Of course, lampooning someone who makes continuous errors when presenting facts in their argument is VERY bad. I will send myself to bed without dinner.

Not so much anymore. If you want to know what I do, Abaddon, ye need only move your patchouli-scented mouse over to my name and click on "topic history." I think if you peer through the incense smoke and the purple haze clouding your mind you'll be able to work it out. (The dancing occurred even on the day AFTER 9/11, btw.)

So, you make sweeping generalsiations, prophecies of genocide (hampered somewhat by your ignorance of the English language), show your opinion is based on inaccurate knowledge about Muslims and France, further show your tendancy to hysteria by confusing two real and tragic issues in your attempt to wail from your soapbox, and round it off by becoming an apologetic for the use of WP on civilians.

And all you can do is make a comment along the lines of;

"well, I can't actually rebutt the thrust of your argument Abaddon, as I was making sweeping generalisations and silly errors of fact regarding Muslims and France, but despite the facts I base my opinions on being shown to be false I am sticking with my opinion and to try to make it seem you like the problem I'll mention you smoke pot as (in what passes for my mind) this means I don't have to answer for the faults in my argument".

Wow, IMPRESSIVE!

I do not view the average Muslim as an innocent bystander either.

The average Muslim is as peaceful and innocent as the average Christian. Yet you'll line them up against the wall for the crimes of others.

I have extremely limited pity for them and their suffering.

That's okay; I pity you.

I've learned a new philosophy, "If you kick my dog I will kill your mother."

Ah, words of Wisdom. I knew a guy like you... he was about SO high (holds fingers under nose) and lived over there (points East with an outstreached arm and downward faced palm at a 45 degree angle).

Of course, you're not a Nazi... just like Islamic Fundies aren't Nazi. But the 'force is right/tolerance is a dream/innocents can die for the cause/revenge is good/certain groups are undesirable due to their religion or ethnicity (not due to any crime on their part)' philosophy is obviously one that Nazism, Fundamental Islam, and the worst of right-wing vapouring such as you exemplify have in common.

That's the tragedy; people like YOU play into the hands of the worst of the Islamic Fundies. Rather than rasing your game you reduce yourself to their level.

How many filmmakers are going to be murdered for speaking their mind? Nobody killed Michael Moore, but the Left only shrugged when that poor Danish guy got whacked.

Czar, again you are wrong. You are now confusing two European countries (instead of the clothing codes of two religions). But please, keep maiing posts. Each post shows in greater deal how little you know about a subject you feel qualified enough in to prophecy a race-war.

Ooh, let's get on JWD and drunkenly speak our minds - that'll show them!

Enough about you and your drunken rant Czar...you weren't drunk? Then that means you've even LESS of an excuse...

Or when those journalists got kidnapped and forcibly converted to Islam in Gaza.

The under-age girl allegedly raped by US troops who then killed her and her family?

Or the Muslim atrocities in Darfur.

That the Christians sit and watch whilst wringing their hands?

Stop thinking in sound-bites man! Look at the bigger picture.

Do you think someone who is enfranchised and capable of supporting theirselves and a family, who is treated equal to those around them, and who feels secure from untoward atacks by their own or other governments jumps out of bed one day and says "I know what I'll do, I'll blow myself up on a bus!!"?

Add in the backwards nature of the cultures many Muslims come from (in terms of their socio-political development) to the high-handed, incompetent, interfering, two-faced and biased handling of those same cultures by the West and you have a recepie for disaster.

If our great-grand parents were subjected to the same behaviour by advanced Muslim super-powers as Muslims (of the same cultural level as our great-grand parents) have been subjected to by advanced 'Christian' super-powers, the situation would be the same.

Except it would be (for example) Palestinian Christians who blew themselves up to protest the unlimited reign a Jewish state is allowed by a Islamic superpower in ethnicly cleansing a country.

Rather than for ONE MOMENT think that we are reaping a whirlwind largely of our own divising you assume the fault lies totally with the Muslims.

But then I doubt (given you are yet to show us any knowledge about this subject) you actually know how the West has crapped down the throat of the Arab Muslim world (in particular) for strategic and economic convenience. If you don't know the extent this has hapened to (which I doubt), then you would see the Muslims as the bad guys in the uninformed and simplistic fashion you do.

I believe that many who feel elements of the Muslim world have unfairly targetted the West suffer from a similar lack of historical perspective. If anyone feels this is an unfair statement, I can always set a pop-quiz, LOL.

Oh, please feel free to make straw man arguments saying I justify the actions of terrorists. I don't. But if that's the best you can do, hell, it keeps you off the streets...

Perhaps you are right - we are not trying to avoid the strictest definition of "genocide" but I have yet to see a term created to represent an all-out assault on a religion.

Crusade?

The term "genocide" was applied in Bosnia, so I used it here.

Because in BOSNIA it was a SINGLE ethnic group who happened to be Muslims that were being killed.

"Religio-cide" would be more to your liking? Or "Ideo-cide?" or "Islamo-cide?"

Coin words to describe your nightmare/dream scenario as you wish. Any smart comments on the fact you obviously know naff all about Muslims (or France), yet on the basis of this 'accumilated' knowledge will condemn an entire religion and prophecy its doom? Hell, Nazi's were doing that about Jews before WWII. Can't you see what your opinions and actions align you with?

And of course I know you're reading this...

43

Questions Surrounding Evolution

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

questions surrounding evolution regarding this subject, the thought in mind is to ask.

some pertinent questions regarding evolution in .

it must be strongly emphasized that there is no wish.

Abaddon

Hi QC, how's life?

Sure Steven. I find the aggregation of information by dna and genetic material absolutely incredible and an example of perfect design - a systm of storing information in temporary storage, passing that information on while gathering new information about the environment, sorting it, discarding the useless, storing the potentially useful and utilising a switching mechanism to select different bits of information to turn on and off during the life of a single organism and also over the span of the species.

It is also the logical nature of a system of inheritance that would develop under evolution by natural selection, as sytems of inhertance that were not so suitable for an idealised system of inheritance would have less inhertants, quand erat demonthingdom.

If we say (for the sake of argument) an idealised system of inheritance would exist EITHER by design OR as this is the one you would logicaly find in any 1,000 of millions year old macro-ecosystem, then we have to look at the likihood of the preconditions of each of those cases existing.

Excluding special pleading and magical thinking (my daughter was a great one at special pleading for the existence of fairies, as she maintained (with great determination) a conceit they DID long after she knew they didn't), we have;

A: The God-did-it hypothesis;

The existence of a complex entity that must have needed and equally complicated designer, reducio ad absurdo
The existence of a complex entity arrived at by naturalistic abogenesis and evolution.

B: The Abio hypothesis;

Things are as they are because of naturalistic abogenesis and evolution.

A both A2 and B1 require the same process to take place, we can assume their probability is the same.

The probability of A1 is determined by calculating the liklihood of an infinate train of complex designers. This is incalculable and total speculation.

<aybe in the next twenty years we'll have figured out how abiogensis happened. That would mean a pretty accurate theory of abiogensis and evolution will have taken less than 200 years to develop.

Religion has had 200,000 years (or 6,000 or so, whatever) and still has not a chance of developing a theory of god.

I feel B1 and A2 are far more likely than A1. You don't, It's a wonderful world.

The selection of that information is alongside a set of external rules that have no corrolary in the biological world and these are:

1/ Pass on the stored information (there are no non-biological systems in the universe that we(I?) know of that obey this law bar things we have actually built - in fact on a galactic scale black holes seem to theoretically erase information before popping cleaned matter back out)

2/ Seek to consciously live and unconsciously die (short term selfish survival against long term suicidal aging)

3/ Seek symbiotic relationships either with similar information or useful but unrelated information carriers (sex through to mitochondria and the cell)

4/To seek consciousness (us)- there has been an inexorable progression of less and less effecient systems as though the end goal was always the main goal (in other words the cost to pass on information for a complex organism is huge and inefficient until you achieve consciousness through evolution at which point the advantage becomes worth the past billion years) If consciousness and hence the ability to process information at an incredible level - we can conceive another dimension(time) - is also just another happy coincidence of the inexorable nature of evolution then we have something arguably much more significany and fortuitous than the first life form containing fortunate information that is encoded to keep going.

You can bite my nutt all you like and quote scientists to 'prove' all this as cr*p but that beloved occam's razor points to design for me at each and every step of the way.

15

The Creator's Creator...

by dorayakii in

i have several ways of stating and demonstrating what is essentially the same point.... 1. jws often deflected the question, "what is the purpose of life?

", by stating that our purpose it is to serve the creator... but, what is the purpose of the creator himself?

must we not apply the same criteria to the creator as we do to ourselves?

Abaddon

creationists would argue that God did not begin to exist, he merely... exists

Yeah, and I would argue that's a load of bollocks, or "argumentum ad testiculi".

Hell, they'd figured out it was an invalid argument 2,500 years ago, if not before.

Even cosmologists recognise that 'because' is an unsatisfactory claim, and have hypotheses to explain how things came to be from 'nothing' which will possibly be testable given particle accelerators of sufficient size.

I look forward to some theists still claiming it's all impossible without god; 'cause even if they DO create artifical universes, there will still be those clinging to the feet of the bronze-age goatherd.

The 'classical' theistic approach is simply lazy; "yeah, god was there for always 'cause I say so, 'cause other people have said so, so it must be true, init?

I mean, at least use some fricking imagination;

"The god of our universe was the end product of 5,000 billion years of evolutionary development in another Universe that collapsed in on itself. Our god was sufficiently developed to not be reabsorbed into the Universe upon its colapse and upon the re-expansion of the Universe we now inhabit controlled the naturalistic processes of the next Universes expansion to its own ends so as to create life in its own image."

Show me that written on a 5,000 year old Egyptian monument in hieroglyphics and I would be seriously impressed...

135

Chemical weapons being used ... how about it America?

by Simon in

of course, as it's the murdering, war-crime-committing, un-mandate-ignoring, nuclear-non-proliferation-flouting israeli friends of america, they probably won't see it as an issue at all.. funny that ... they were dead keen on going to war over just the hint of this very thing but probably won't even condemn it.. it's about time that sanctions were imposed on israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6075408.stm.

.

Abaddon

Czar

What has my birthday (9/12) got to do with anything? Please start your cultural assasination by at least getting the date right...

Do I hate all Muslims? Well, considering that I think their

Ah. 1 billion people. Pretty big 'their'. I suppose that is 'their' as in 'they' and 'them', that wonderful term used to reduce people to a generic target group. Any other sweeping generalisations you wish to make? Any idiot (as you show below, you are far from any idiot) knows Islam is only 20% Arabic, and the violent ones are a small minority of Arab and non-Arab Muslims. But just like the Nazi's regarded the Jews as the same no matter what they did or where they came from, do you also regard Muslims the same no mattr what they do or where they come from...?

only chance of avoiding being completely genocided by every OTHER religion is to adopt a modern government, and I am actively trying to work towards that end, then NO, I don't hate muslims.

Yah are "actively trying to work towards that end", how, do please us tell Mother Theresa. By making sweeping generalisations? Oooo, any more help please!!! Go on, if blow your own trumpet, let us at least hear what you're playing... what do you do then? Make WP munitons?

If they

Yup, I knew you were talking about 'them', the refuge of the wooly-minded diatribe...

don't change, and quickly, what do you think will happen to them?

According to you people will kill Muslims in an act of genocide. Which is an oxymoron (no, not you, what you said, you're only halfway to being an oxymoron), as Islam is not a religion of one distinct racial group, thus 'genocide' is really not an appropriate term. But considering the sloppy carelessness of your 'they' I'm not suprised about it spreading through your post further...

Considering France's amazing difficulties with its pampered Muslim youth,

I think 'pampered Muslim youth' is probably as accurate as your 'them' and your 'genocide'... please, tell me how pampered they are. I hear they are so pampered they cannot get jobs unless they hide the ethnicity of their name, even if they are more qualified than European applicants. That must be because all the nasty racists want the Muslims to have it easy and be pampered on state hand-outs... and racists get SUCH a bad rap normally!! And there they are making sure young Muslims get pampered!

I am not willing to consider hosting millions of bearded, turbaned, burqaed refugees in MY backyard.

Oh my god, do you know what you sound like? Turbaned??!!?? I think yah mean Seikhs yah great idiot.

Turbans are not really any more to do with Islam than the veil is. It's an item of culltural clothing (just like the veil) the wearing of which is not mentioned as a requirement in the Qu'ran (just like the veil is not mentioned as a reqiuirement). By all means dispute this one with me, LOL.

So what about the intelligence failures?

I think you can tell us a hell of a lot about intelligence failures. What about them Einstein?

Even if somebody HAD put all the pieces together, somebody like you would have protested any action taken as "racist" and "fascist" and "profiling" or whatever Leftist claptrap you want to call it.

I suppose you supply the far-right bullcrap?

We improved our national intelligence system

... but you were on holiday so missed out?

As for White Phosphorus, it's a bad way to go, but we all die badly.

You first. As you're so sanguine about being WP'd to death, lead us by example with your "kinder, gentler machine gun hand." You evade the whole point; the use of WP when civilians can be effected. As far more civilians died from Israeli action than terrorists, I think we can safely assume more civilians died from WP than terrorists, unless the Israeli's only aim well when using WP???

And just in case you think you don't have slaves working for you (as all empires require slavery in some form) - have you bought anything made in Indonesia lately? Or China, Taiwan, or even your morning coffee grown in Latin America? Any plastic in your house? That's made from cheap petroleum, you know.

Look 'slave' up. There IS slavery around, REAL slavery. What you're talking about is many people working for a good wage (in their country) and far too many people working for an inadequate wage due to the lack of fair trade. But your use of words is mind-beggaringly inaccurate so another mis-used term is no surprise.

But this is my last comment on the subject. All I'm saying is that everybody on this board is wallowing in the wealth of the Western dominance, and I at least am honest enough to work to perpetuate it.

Oh, no Czar, please say more. It makes my day when someone shows themselves up like you do. And what do you DO exactly to perpetuate Western dominance? I'm dying to know...

15

The Creator's Creator...

by dorayakii in

i have several ways of stating and demonstrating what is essentially the same point.... 1. jws often deflected the question, "what is the purpose of life?

", by stating that our purpose it is to serve the creator... but, what is the purpose of the creator himself?

must we not apply the same criteria to the creator as we do to ourselves?

Abaddon

Ian

I have a wide set of skills to avert boredom. In addition to being able to argue with myself I can also flirt with walls.

11

French government's good example: being tough on cults

by greendawn in

jw
friends

about a year ago a collection of sects that included the jws demanded from the supreme court in paris to outlaw unadfi an organisation for the protection of the family and individual against the activities of such cultic organisations.

what a cheek they had.. the court rejected the demand and imposed on each of these sects to pay 10 000 euro to unadfi for damage caused to its reputation and 5 000 euro each for court costs.

also to publish at their own cost the above decision in 8 newspapers to make it known that unadfi was innocent of the accusations brought against it.

Abaddon

France certainly is a secular state, but it's still a pretty Roman Catholic country... however, they figured out centuries ago to keep god-bothering out of affairs of state (thus freedom FROM religion).

However there is a presiding cultural assumption tha people are Roman Catholic, even though this has a very large NOMINAL tacked on in front of most.

Whilst people can pretend wine and biscuits magically becomes flesh and blood, that condoms damn you to hell, and that the Pope is inflatable (yes, I know, I'm being funny), people beleiving that using blood make god angry or that E-meters are a good way of resolving psychological conflict is viewed differently. It's not 'normal', as 'normal' is RC..

Obviously there is a difference in HOW people come about beliefs that splits of common-or-garden religion from cults. However, it's not black and white, it's a graduated spectrum and some RC's are just as bound by cult like conditioning as some cultists are.

Now wearing a head-scarf (not the veil, which is as much a statement of political identity as a Swastika armband or Confedrate flag) is banned in French schools along with 'large crosses'. Apparently whilst you can wear small crosses you can't wear small head-scarfs. So it ain't all roses in la belle France.

France along with Germany and Austria (both of whom should know better) are the chief opposers to one action which will probably mark a favourable watershed in Christo-Islamic relations; the entry of Turkey into the EU.

This is again based on the assumption that 'Europe is Christian'.

No, actually, most of Europe is more intreseted in a lie in on Sunday, or going to Ikea, than in worshipping god, actually...

As Turkish people are as for lie-in's on the weekend and consumer spending as your next EU citizen, I don't see why they shouldn't join once they've made a few essential human rights consessions.

If the USA follows suit with the human rights consessions we might even let you guys join...