Posts by Abaddon

61

the intellectual laziness in jh, ks & follo...

by elke in

jw
friends

the words: intellectual laziness.

recognize this trait?

ahhh,many who apostasies from the one truth, shall we say ,adopts this trait-and transforms into epitomies of intellectual laziness...they construct the premise there is no true god to mislead others...they proceed to construct arguments to support these prefabricated conclusions with the building blocks of false logic...they convince intellectually lazy individuals the odds of a creators existence are remote...a lie recognizable to any form of honest intelligence.. craig rusbult, ph.d. explains why god refuses to provide irrefutable proof in his existence on the web page http://www.asa3.org/asa/education/views/proof.htm - "although it isn't stated directly in the bible, god seems to prefer a balance of evidence: there is enough reason to believe if we want to believe, but not enough to intellectually force belief against our will.

Abaddon

Erich, this will be my last reply to you unless I get very bored and have nothing better to do. You are a waste of bandwidth. I will only revise this opinion if you stop your empty posturing and give us something more than vauge statements.

My answer to your question is easy. NONE. My lack of belief in god is a formative thing, not something I got out of any one book.

You seem to be a summative person; you find something that supports to one extent or the other your belief, and cite that as your reason, when in fact you might be supporting a bad arguement (like elke used here), an irrelavancy (some other bloke believing in god), or misrepresenting your source. This would explain your unwillingness to actually post why you think what you think.

Click on the icon under my name that allows you to view posts I have made. If you are not sure which one does it, hover your mouse over the icons and their function will appear after a moment.

There are many appertaining to the paucity of proof for the theory of god. A good example containing the logical arguement for god not existing is to be found in http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=16693&site=3

I don't believe in god because there is no evidence, and because logically there should be. But read the post. I wouldn't want you looking silly by missing an element of the arguement when you, if you respond.

So remember, no more replies unless you reply properly, okay?

Oh, and thanks for the compliment

I am pretty, however, I'm a boy... and anyone who thinks I look like a girl is either taking the piss or in need of glasses.

FunkyD; just a quick line to say I appreciate your posts - I also like your signature, another fave quote of mine by Voltaire is "I object to what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it". I don't suppose you know what book it's from? I can't recall it, but I'm pretty sure it's not Candide.

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

48

Turn back on God because of WTS or JW's??

by IWish4Truth in

jw
friends

in my opinion, it's one thing to not agree with organizations that impose certain rules upon it's members, but it's quite another to turn one's back on god himself because of disagreements.

is there not still some higher power out there who has the best interest of humans at heart?

how can it be denied, especially in these terrible times, that something or someone is gonna have to step in and take over and end this havoc.

Abaddon

Oh, god, another one.... nope, there's several... alright, no more Mr. Nice Atheist;

In my opinion, it's one thing to not agree with organizations that impose certain rules upon it's members, but it's quite another to turn one's back on God Himself because of disagreements.

Yup, I agree, finding out an organisation is fake and finding out the theory of god is false are two different things. Well done.

Is there not still some Higher Power out there who has the best interest of humans at heart?

No, there is no higher power out there. You want a discussion about it? Go ahead, make my day. Start of by giving me some proof of this higher power.

How can it be denied, especially in these terrible times, that something or someone is gonna have to step in and take over and end this havoc.

Yes, times are so terrible that, worldwide, heath care is better, life-spans longer, education more available, and sexual equality more established than EVER before. Stop sounding like a Watchtower article and cite some facts rather than your fact distorting buffonery. People who say things like that are staring at bad trees in a forest that is in better shape than ever before.

I'll ignore the rest of the post as it builds upon the dumb assumptions I've responded too above.

Please, would all of you fundies and theists take your offensive assumption that we atheists 'throw the baby out with the bath water', or stop believeing in god because we were JW's and have our faith shattered, and put it out with the trash where it belongs.

I don't believe in god because there is no evidence. No other reason. Give me some decent evidence, I'll believe.

I'll give you an equally offensive assumption.

I think that people who are xJW's and still believe in any form caring, concerened god have failed to completely rebuild their world-view. Having been fed a sack of shit by the JW's, they empty out half of it (the JW stuff), and carry on eating the rest (the god who cares stuff), but it is still shit. They are basing their life upon an unsupported theory, as they are too lazy to learn, or so badly educated they don't understand the evidence for a godless Universe, or are so scared of their existence ending with their last breath they'll perform conceptual back-flips to retain their belief in god and hope of an afterlife.

If you don't like it, see what RR says "... you don't need to be polite ... this is about TRUTH and TRUTH hurts."

I do hope you like getting paid in the same coin.

As for those of you trying to sell your religion to people recovering from a cult, well, that speaks of your morality, doesn't it? Selling soap when you're covered in dirt is NOT a moral high ground. The advice by Refiners Fire is apt, although I don't know if they realise it

'If you still yearn for belief I recommend you stop thinking so much'

Yup, the only way I could believe in god is if I stopped thinking. If god gave me this brain, and wants me to stop using it, then the Universe is absurd, and god is an asshole.

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

61

the intellectual laziness in jh, ks & follo...

by elke in

jw
friends

the words: intellectual laziness.

recognize this trait?

ahhh,many who apostasies from the one truth, shall we say ,adopts this trait-and transforms into epitomies of intellectual laziness...they construct the premise there is no true god to mislead others...they proceed to construct arguments to support these prefabricated conclusions with the building blocks of false logic...they convince intellectually lazy individuals the odds of a creators existence are remote...a lie recognizable to any form of honest intelligence.. craig rusbult, ph.d. explains why god refuses to provide irrefutable proof in his existence on the web page http://www.asa3.org/asa/education/views/proof.htm - "although it isn't stated directly in the bible, god seems to prefer a balance of evidence: there is enough reason to believe if we want to believe, but not enough to intellectually force belief against our will.

Abaddon

BATHORY; does that mean you liked it?

Thanks... your mention of illuminati got me thinking...

You notice dear little Erich doesn't seek to support elke's post, the one a little ago was the best he'd seen on this board? No rebuttal of my analysis. He just carries on about all this wealth of information that he has access to;

Study all "hidden" published alternative physical theories. Also study all new patents issued by the PTO. And e-mail the authors about their opinions about the existence of God... You will be very very surprised

... and mentions a Zeilinger... a little later I have the thesis archive of this guy's Institute on screen... Multi-photon Entanglements, Quantum Teleportation and Multi-photon Entanglement, all fun stuff; recent developments indicate a FTL communications system may be possible using entangled photons, and recently they teleported photons accross a tabletop! Hardly proof of god though.

As for the "hidden" published alternative theories... ABSTRACTS PLEASE, and URL's.

As for studying patents; give us an example.

And, please, just because some physics whizz believes in god means zippy-da-do-da to me. Please state, Erich, whether you believe in the theory of evolution, and if not, why not?

As pointed out earlier, you are all talk, no trousers, and your failure to provide any firm evidence whatsoever for your claims just makes you look silly. Making claims of seceret knowledge known by a few and concealed is a very very very old trick. Please do not be a bore.

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

61

the intellectual laziness in jh, ks & follo...

by elke in

jw
friends

the words: intellectual laziness.

recognize this trait?

ahhh,many who apostasies from the one truth, shall we say ,adopts this trait-and transforms into epitomies of intellectual laziness...they construct the premise there is no true god to mislead others...they proceed to construct arguments to support these prefabricated conclusions with the building blocks of false logic...they convince intellectually lazy individuals the odds of a creators existence are remote...a lie recognizable to any form of honest intelligence.. craig rusbult, ph.d. explains why god refuses to provide irrefutable proof in his existence on the web page http://www.asa3.org/asa/education/views/proof.htm - "although it isn't stated directly in the bible, god seems to prefer a balance of evidence: there is enough reason to believe if we want to believe, but not enough to intellectually force belief against our will.

Abaddon

Thank you elke. I have been looking forward to ramming this particular piece of theistic nonsense where the sun don't shine for a while now, but have not had the opportunity.

Please remember, that atheists can judge trees according to their fruits too. You making this an attack on named individuals just makes you look like a bitch, and does nothing to enhance your arguement. It sets the tone though. You obviously don't read your Bible that much, as this is a nasty little hate-filled post, the like of which really shouldn't come from anyone calling themselves a Christian. That observation aside, let cut to the guts of this guy's arguement;

Although it isn't stated directly in the Bible,

So this guy is adding to what is said in the Bible. Isn't that un-Biblical? Last verse of Revelation I think. There is no line in the Bible that says "I have made my existence un-provable, as I want belief to be by faith". I suppose god thought that actually stating he was playing games with our lives was a little too obvious.

God seems to prefer a balance of evidence: there is enough reason to believe if we want to believe, but not enough to intellectually force belief against our will.

Ah, so this is conjecture. God 'seems'. Great. How... convincing... and you say that atheists are intellectually lazy, when you seem to think this is some great convincing arguement? When it's not. The statement "there is enough reason to believe if we want to believe" is great, it's a matter of opinion, and it cuts to the fundamental truth, one I would not dream of argueing with, that believing in god is only possible if you want to.

However elke, the fact that you can only believe in god if you want to is not proof of god, or of the arguement he then proceeds to make. Oh, and the idea put forward here seems to contradict god being desirous that none of us are destroyed, as turning its existence into a guessing game would inevitably lead to 'collatoral damage' amongst those who reasonably concluded there was no god.

Instead of overpowering us with undeniable logic or mighty miracles until we grudgingly give up and give in, God wants us to want to come to Him. With this balance there is authentic free will, and the choice is primarily made not by intellect, but by heart and will.

Wow, a whole raft of presumptions.

First of all that we would "grudgingly give up and give in" if god proved its existence. Speak for yourself. I'd love it.

Secondly, that "God wants us to want to come to Him". This makes your god very petty and human. Like, it doesn't prove it exists, and expects people to do it anyway, so it can just sit on its omnipotent ass and be worshipped. This is actually CONTRARY to the nature of god as revealed in the Bible! Have you ever read that book? God is mostly smiting mightily, or sending his son to tell us about him. Looks like god is doing an awful lots of coming to people, rather than letting them come to him.

Third pressumption, that this gives us freewill. Eh? We would have freewill even if we had definative proof of god's existence. This is provable scriptually. Satan rebelled, and exercised freewill by doing so, yet he KNEW god existed. So you can have freewill and know god exists, they are not mutually exclusive states as suggested here. Hell, seems this guy doesn't read the Bible too, or is 'intellectually lazy' or just plain DUMB. Oh, and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE try the arguement that angels don't have freewill... as this means god made Satan rebel, and the demons fall, and is the root of all human suffering, and it really makes god into a monster... I love it when Christian's do that, it's fun... they make the whole of human history a game played by god, with no care for the suffering its game produced.

Final presumption from the above section is that choice should be made by heart and will, not intellect. Hah! This shows traces of tradional beliefs that the heart is the source of reason, when all it is a rather good pump, and that willpower is somehow removed from intellect. When you're daft as a brush willpower might be removed from intellect, but mine is nicely synchronised, thank you, and the idea of god apparently giving us this intellect and not wanting us to use it is risable.

A balance is also needed for developing the "living by faith" character so highly valued by God.

Funny, this guy hasn't quoted one scripture yet to support the absence of proof of god, it's all speculation...

In a world where it may seem justifiable to be intellectually agnostic, God wants a non-agnostic faith, a total spiritual commitment, a true repentance followed by a complete trust in God that is manifested in all thoughts and actions of daily living.

So, this guy speculates that god wants us to come to him (despite this is not proved in the Bible), and that he doesn't prove his existence as he wants us to have freewill (which is false, as proven in the Bible, as you can KNOW god exists and have freewill ANYWAY), and on this lack of evidence makes the assumption "God wants a non-agnostic faith, a total spiritual commitment, a true repentance followed by a complete trust in God that is manifested in all thoughts and actions of daily living."

I prefer phrasing this as "Certain Christians believe god does not prove his existence as this would remove our freewill, despite the fact this belief is contradicted in the Bible, and assert that belief is a game god expects us to play without giving us a clear set of rules, or a pitch to play it on, or anyone visable to play with, and that he wants us to act like mindless zombies without freewill, worshippping something our minds tell us isn't there".

Thank you elke, I enjoyed that. Rex repeats arguements that didn't work, and it gets dull refuting the same old stuff AGAIN. Shoving this particulary stupid concept where the sun don't shine brightened my day.

Yet another theist giving me reasons not to believe in god...

Erich; My, but you're pleasingly deranged... I base this on the fact you are what we call in England "All talk and no trousers", i.e. you claim a lot but prove NOTHING, and by the fact you say the post elke made was "... one of the best articles I read in this forum", when it was piss-poor.

Unless you want to join the role-call of dysfunctional losers who no-one takes seriously, I would actually post a substansive article giving scientific proof of god, or showing recent developments that indicate such a proof might one day be available.

You can site books all you want, but I take the trouble to present quite detailed extracts of material here I have learnt elsewhere, or to post resources available on the web. You can do the same. To me saying 'x book proves my point' and not bothering to provide an extract is not worth my time or money investigating, as when I have in the past it's been a waste of time AND money. If you think elke's arguement is a good one, you would probably have found "Chariot of the God's" convincing, and I haven't the time to read crap.

So, give us an extract... or stop claiming things you can't prove...

Don't worry, I'll let you know if it's too complicated for ickle me.

Abaddon
(wearing his arrogant "can't be arsed with time wasters hat")

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

53

Atheist you say?

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

direct from the files of [email protected].

how to make an atheist backslide .

there is no god .

Abaddon

Rex avoids the issues!! Rex avoids the issues!!

Bok bok bok bok!!!

You big Christian CHICKEN!!!

Come on Rex, bring it on... or do you perhaps realise you can't answer the questions and only believe in god BECAUSE YOU WANT TO, not because of any form of external evidence, despite your posturing. Want respect? Admit the facts.

Your illogicity and selective blindness brightnens my days. It reminds me how far most of us have come, and how glad we should be... you are my poster boy Rex; send us a JPEG, PLEASE!

Yes, I know you have feelings too, I am teasing you, but if I didn't like you I'd ignore you... so don't be too hurt that despite the fact I like you, I think your opinions in areas of belief are ludicrous! You'll just have to 'put up' with me not agreeing with you, like I have to 'put up' with you disagreeing with me.

All the best

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

34

Press release: WT human rights violation

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

hello randy,.

the human rights organization i am affiliated is sending out this press release on human rights violation by the jehovah's witnesses.

it cites several united nation human rights documents.---john brown.

Abaddon

Decent proof-reading aside, this has two major flaws;

1/ It states there are two ways to leave. There are three. One can simply become inactive and slip away. This does not reduce the human-rights impacts of DF'ing of DA'ing, as if one actively leaves, one cannot do so freely. But to state there are only two ways means the press release fails in its goal by being dismissable as inaccurate by a JW or a supoorter.

2/ It doesn't have sizzle. Essentially, to a non-concerned party, it is 'yes, and, so, what'. How about framing it in view of the recent withdrawl as a UN NGO?. Example;

"Although JW's have been victims of human rights violations in the past, and have actively campaigned for legislation supporting human rights, recent developments have shown that they do not apply the same rules to their internal conduct. They recently withdrew from the UN as an NGO as they were no longer able to support the aims of the United Nations that NGO's are required to support, such as "xyz".

This failure to support fundamental human rights internally is evidenced by their treatment of people who are either judged 'unworthy' of being a Jehovah's Witness and are shunned by their former associates after being difsfellowshipped by the organisation's hierachy, or who leave for personal reason, and are again shunned by their former associates due to the organisations teachings."

This is far more interesting to any reader; blatent hypocracy, double standards, and it is all proved by their own actions in dissassociating themselves from an organisation dedicated to supporting human rights as they were unable to support that organisations aims.

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

18

Milton Henschel and the UN helicopter trip

by bj in

jw
friends

some weeks ago, someone on this board alleged that milton henschel took profit of the un by using their helicopter.

as you can imagine this is a serious accusation which need to be founded on proof.

therefore, i would like to know what are your sources?

Abaddon

The helicopter story is just lame-brianed scuttlebutt.

I don't know if it's true, I don't care if it's true, the WTBTS are false ANYWAY.

The whole UN thing (as documented and proved here and elsewhere) is just gilding the cherry of hypocracy on top of the cake of falsehood, baked in the oven of ignorance.

But, some desperate people will use the fact a small detail like that is unprovable as a reason to believe it's all not true.

I do wish some of the nut jobs would restrict themselves to the provable stuff. It's not as though one needs any more than the truth to nail the WTBTS in the coffin they belong.

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

37

Never Ending Jokes - Part II

by waiting in

oops............ i tried to post back on the other thread and got an ugly looking "internal error" message.

seven's dire warning obviously had some validity to it, eh?.

the following was sent to me by prisca, remember her?

Abaddon

Yadirf, You Know, & Rex... !!!

Well, they make me laugh!!!

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

37

10 REASONS WHY JWS STAY IN THE TOWER

by Victor_E in

jw
friends

reason 1. jws use a cultic language that keeps them in a constant state of social hypnosis.

transformational grammar teaches that our language directly affects our subjective experience.

in working with some former jws i had to confiscate certain words and have them create substitutes for something that was more neutral.

Abaddon

Erich;

I have a son. He is 30 years old now. He is JW like me - but it was his free decision. If he would have not agreed with JW belief, then I would have accept it!! I never applied a tiny part of repression or coercion on him in all the years.

Erich; please read up on cults, or high control groups. Your concept of a free decision might actually be skewed; you may not have shunned him if he'd decided not to be a Witness, but, if he had been baptised, and then DA'd of DF'd, others would have. This is a fact. This means 'free decision' is not that free, as it has negative concequences!

You also discount the fact that he loves you, and wants to please you. Again, is his following your faith a 'free decision'?

You say you have never repressed or coerced him. That is comendable. But I doubt if you 'left it up to him', not really. You lead by example, he followed, divergence from this would be noted by you, even if it was a raised eyebrow or a reproving glance, or a lengthy pause. I once got a 57% payrise just by sitting there and saying nothing. I didn't coerce my boss actively, but passively.

But anyway, read some material on high control groups, then you can start to learn, until then you don't have the vocabulary and are just running scared, and making yourslef look silly. For example;

I know that I am a griper in this forum. You soon will see me having enemies in all sides: JW's and ex-JW's and anti-JW's.
(Same happened in a German JW-forum..)

Wow. That's a very self-fufilling, egocentric little complex you got going there. Maybe you're just wrong most of the time! Oh, no, of course, you are reasonable and everyone else is wrong!!

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

53

Atheist you say?

by Rex B13 in

jw
friends

direct from the files of [email protected].

how to make an atheist backslide .

there is no god .

Abaddon

Frenchy; crownboy bought out one of the points I would have (thanks!).

Even if you believe that god will NOT punish people for failing to conform to its requirements, the absence of proof of the theory of god is still illogical.

If coming to know god is beneficial to a person, god's existence effectively being hidden still causes a delitrious effect, as it hinders people in coming to know god and thus getting the benefit.

Arguements about the search for god being all part of a big divine plan for humans, and that some people just don't get it, or aren't in the right incarnation, or whatever, are all fundamentally silly, as they reduce humans to chess pieces and god to a player, and I have yet to find a convincing moral arguement that would justify this behaviour on the part of a divine being, and such conceptualiasations of god are so distressingly petty and human as to defy belief.

Logically, the absence of proof of god indicates either there is no god, or it's playing games, or god is something removed from typical concepts of god, so far removed that we better come up with a new word, like the Force.

Rex; Your god is a psycho-terrorist!!!

He makes sure there is no proof, but expects us to believe in it anyway, as if we have nothing to lose by believing in god and everything to lose from not believing in god.

Nothing to lose by believing in god? How about self respect?! Spending one's life brown-nosing the extensively modified figment of a caveman's imagination JUST IN CASE? Pathetic!!

Rex, your god is an asshole. Note, I did not say god (if there is one) is an asshole. I said YOUR god is an asshole. Your concept of god is so deeply objectional in moral and logcal terms I want to wipe my computer screen when I read some of the stuff you write about it.

Oh, a reminder; that last sentence used hyperbole, it was not written in anger. You always think I'm angry as some modes of address seem alien to you, so you assume it's anger. I'm not. Incredulous at times, yes, angry, no.

You are a work of art though (irony);

Despite the various claims of laughter, I'm sure that each one of you found something within the post that made your new wall shake just a little. Some of you are forcing it a little, Abaddon plays at being cocksure yet she seems rather defensive to me.

Having shown overweening arrogance, you then say I am cocky!! That may well be true. My cat feels cocky when it reads the stuff you write (sarcasm). And I know I'm pretty (irony again), but I am a he.

Logical rules of argumentation, you say?
I see it used mostly to play word games and split hairs, which often obscures the meaning behind the words

Maybe YOU'RE missing something Rex. Maybe you're so afraid of a Universe where you live, and then die, and that's IT, that you put your mind through hoops to pretend it isn't so, and when you confront something even YOU (sarcasm) cannot fit through a hoop you just burble and resort to what is either terminological inexactitude, or unsupported re-iteration of subjective beliefs, like;

... Christianity has the most logical explanation for our existence, the most conclusive evidence for why we exist and the most historical evidence that a God-man walked the earth ...

Funny thing is you preface those statements with "You'd never believe that Christianity... ", and, for once, you're right!

Your lack of introspection is shown by statements like;

You guys just don't get it. Your world-view just keeps getting in the way. The cocoon you built for yourselves won't let you see.

Do you know why it is hysterical YOU say that?

Your final few sentences, by the way, is all the proof that one needs in proving that your god (as mentioned above), is an asshole;

You still think that there is some totally logical, rational (by human standards) set of explanations out there beyond JW land. Just like in the old days with the WTS, we think that 'all can be figured out and there are no mysteries', just like old mad-hatter Chaz Russell with his 'Divine Plan of the Ages'.
There are always too sides, there are no certainties (except in Christ), no one can prove nor disprove the existence of God. You cannot actually be an atheist for no one can know all....except God. All of your reasons for reviling Christianity are moot points. God will show mercy on whom He will show mercy, He need not provide explanations for His will, nor the reasons therin. His thoughts are not like ours. We see none of the big picture, thus we have no basis to set ourselves up as judges of His behavior.
It doesn't matter what we like or don't like about His actions (or inactions). We have no legitimate say in the matter. He has always determined the lengths of men's lives. He is sovereign Lord at all times. He just IS and we understand that as 'I Am', not "I have been' as the blasphemous NWT phrases His name.

Your god makes rational creatures with inquring minds and then denies a rational or or resolvable explaination of existence. See? An asshole. Oh, and if you cannot be an atheist because you can't prove god doesn't exist (let's ignore the lame logic), it follows, using the same lame logic you endorse, that you cannot be a theist as it's impossible (as you admit) to prove god exists.

So much for the man of faith routine. You cannot prove there is a god, and think that you'd best believe in it anyway in case there is one and it gets pissed. Wow! What faith you have! If I were god you'd be toast just for being a luke-warm cynic!! What does it say about vomiting the luke-warm out?

Kiss you petard goodbye Rex!

(the above is a combination of irony, sarcasm and hyperbole, just in case you think I am angry)

People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...