Posts by kaik

17

The Revelation of Saint John the Divine

by Caupon in

apparently there are anointed members of god's earthy organization, or the jehova's christian witness church.

my understanding of this is that those select few appointed by holy spirit directed by he who is above will rule over the other sheep with the jesus in heaven.

their biblical proof of this is supposedly in the acts of the apostles and the last book, the revelation.

kaik

I had read books from E. Pagels and I liked the Gnostic Gospels and Origin of Satan. I had it in my library but my JW family threw it away as apostate literature. Band, did you studied at Princeton University where she is right now?

Roman Empire always enforced censorship. Even during the prosperous era of the Principate. Octavianus Augustus is blamed for censorship that ended the golden age of the Latin literature. During his reign two the most influential intellectuals committed suicicde, including Labienus Rabienus, who disagree with the censorship and the imperial order having books burned. Other writers, historians, and intellectuals were bannished from empire. Cassius Severus ended in Crete while Ovid was exilled to Romania among the Scythians. The imperial politics destroyed independent intellectual education and freedom. The latin literature recovered after Augustus and Tiberius.

The Book of Revelation had profound effect in medieval times, especially in the Kingdom of Bohemia in the second decade of the 15th century. Catholic Europe was divided by schism and several reformers had arose in the Holy Roman Empire to criticize the Roman Papacy and Imperial office. The biggest critics came from the Czech speaking population under John Huss. The antichrist was identified by persona of Emperor Zikmund and the whore of Babylon the Roman Church. The papacy in Avignon was compared to 70 years of exile in Babylon. The arcbishop of Prague painted scene of four horseman of apocalypse in his residency. The end of time fever hit all time high in 1419 when excommunicated dominican monk prophecised that end for that summer. I am not sure how he came up to that year as he calculated it from the destruction of Jerusalem in 135, but he was off by 14 years and added 1260 year to the get 1419. About 1 million people gathered in the summer of 1419 on the hills around Bohemian kingdom to await the return of Jesus Christ. As nothing had happened, huge dissapointment lead to Hussite War which devastated much of the Central Europe in the following years. The followers of the failed 1419 prophecy were hunted down and burned on stakes. The city of Pilsen played a pivotal role in the Hussite Revolution as the failed Armageddon caused the city to turn back into Roman Catholicism and became a bastion of catholicism in Czech society for next 500 years.

17

The Revelation of Saint John the Divine

by Caupon in

apparently there are anointed members of god's earthy organization, or the jehova's christian witness church.

my understanding of this is that those select few appointed by holy spirit directed by he who is above will rule over the other sheep with the jesus in heaven.

their biblical proof of this is supposedly in the acts of the apostles and the last book, the revelation.

kaik

To Caupon. According to Studies in the Scriptures, Russell explains Rev.5:11 as

Of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.— "As the number of the Bride of Christ is to be 144,000, it would be reasonable to think that each number of this class may have 144,000 to look after, as 144,000x144,000 equals 20,736,000,000...

...And there were sealed 144,000.— On this point one of Pastor Russell's coworkers has well said: "That this is not a symbolical, but an exact number, seems certain from the fact that, in the same chapter reference is made to another company, also spirit-begotten.

With the end of the Gospel age, the narrow way to immortality will close, because the select "little flock" that it was designed to test and prove will have been completed.

The message was to sound forth from the Lord's consecrated people during the Harvest of the Gospel Age, from 1878 to 1918.

A like work was to be accomplished in Spiritual Israel, Christendom, after the Lord's Second Advent in 1874. The man raised up, "set upon his feet," and given wisdom, grace and power for the task, was Pastor Russell.

Russell belived that the sealed people were in his generation to whom he was part of. Since nobody is alive anymore born in 1870's, WT conveniently moved the sealed 60 something year later. But it has been almost 80 years since this event, WT got a new light and allowed increasing number of people to partake.

153

One aspect of evolution that does not make sense.....

by EndofMysteries in

the part that does make sense are how bodies adapt over time to surroundings and use.

for example because of eating habits changing, our jaws have become smaller and we don't need wisdom teeth.

or the effect of the sun on our skin, etc.

kaik

Evolution is clearly visible in the microbiology with development of resistance to present medicine or from aquiring immunity of people. For example earlier plagues, syphillis, influenza and other had changed over the years as people became more resistant to it, or the medicine involved that the bacteria or viruses had to adapt. Also you can look into domestication of animals and plants how they developed over the years. Today apples are different from original apple trees that grew up in Persia and were brought into Europe by Alexander Macedon. Oranges, plums, walnuts, dates had developed over the thousands years, they have different taste, different pests and diseases. This process took over numerous generations over thousands of years. Evolution is observeble, almost all major christian denominations outside USA do not have problem with it, including Catholich church.

17

The Revelation of Saint John the Divine

by Caupon in

apparently there are anointed members of god's earthy organization, or the jehova's christian witness church.

my understanding of this is that those select few appointed by holy spirit directed by he who is above will rule over the other sheep with the jesus in heaven.

their biblical proof of this is supposedly in the acts of the apostles and the last book, the revelation.

kaik

I agree with the Band... Nobody really knows who was inteneded audience of John and what he meant. It was confusing book since the 2nd century AD and the Christian community was divided on this book. Nobody really know or understand what John want to say, except John himself. There was already debate during his lifetime that John and other apostles disagreed with Paul. Look Rev 2:2 which is sometimes understand as a criticism of Paul who claimed to be apostle, yet he never met Jesus.

JW doctrine flip flop on the annoited and the sealed 144,000. Russell believed that the number was sealed in 1878. Rutherford changed it to 1935. Until 1990's the number of annoited decreased, today is it is twice that much. Also JW back in earlier years belived that the number of people whose name was in the book of life was set to 144000x144000.

49

Head covering for women--how did you feel about this? Men? Women?

by humbled in

jw
friends

thinking about how this felt awkward to some of us women when a bible student noticed something was "up" if a baptised brother sat in on a study.

had to reference 1 cor.

11:1-16.. i wonder if this irked any while you were still in?.

kaik

I really did not cared. We had in Eastern Europe many babuskas so, the head covering with a scarf was rather normal. I remember that women were told not to wear pearls

72

CO's & DO's age 70+ to be laid off on 9/1/14

by williamhconley in

jw
friends

in a private conversation with a c.o.

friend from north carolina, he told me yesterday that they just got a letter that all traveling overseers (do's & co's) age 70 & up are going to be laid off on 09/01/2014.

they will be asssigned to local congregations and further details are pending.. .

kaik

I am not suprised, and I do not feel a sorry for them. Instead working hard as majority of taxpayers did, they spent time sitting on lectures, reading material so they can preach and make 50-60 lectures per year traveling in their district. My parents said they always look like obese bankers and their hands are so soft from lacking any physical damage or hard labor.

I am sure they can go on some kind of welfare in USA, and certainly in Europe. The reality will bite their ass hard. If they have not contributed into medicare, they will not get any. Plus medicare still has deductible which are rather expensive. They may enroll into medicaid or some state run inferior healthcare system that will cover the basic + hospic care. They should move a mobile homes or trailers to the proximity of the KH.

I would suspect that the generational change is required to whipe out failed history and with it severe a genetic link from past lies to create new ones for the newer members. My DO was old man back in the 80's and he is still there, and he must be at least 85 year old codger, if no more. I would not be suprised if this is based on power struggle within the organization.

73

Hardcore JW Friend Predicts the End of the Organization within 10 years.

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

had a conversation with an aspiring elder.

he said the end must be close because people are so discouraged that the organization can't last more than 10 years.

this is before we received the please come to the international convention letter.

kaik

As other had said, the WT will not go anywhere. They can stink for another 140 years of failed prophecies and misunderstanding bible and still insist that the Armageddon is behind the corner. There is a sucker born in every minutes. They may lose members, but they still can attrack many crazies into the WT who will believe whatever lies and nonsense the WT publishes. If WT will say that there is a hell, JW will be delighted that this is new light. They lack critical thinking and will no care how outraged nonsense can come from the Borg. WT would eventually cover its past lies and will come up with new date and new year in the future as the beginning of end. The second option for WT would be a claim that God decided to postpone the Armageddon as he did under prophet Jonas with Niniveh, and new world can be centuries away. For JW who spent decades in lie, they may get disilusioned, but they do not matter. Some would even accept it as a fact thinking that they will be resurrected in new world. My crazy JW aunt died believing that she will be immediatelly resurrected as the Armageddon was imminent, yet she is gone for 13 years and her children who are between 50-60 are dealing with failing health will join her as well. The funniest issue I heard is that they still keep her things and cloths as she will need them in upcomming resurrection.

16

A question about the accuracy of dating the Earth and fossils.....

by EndofMysteries in

i have done some research into radiometric and carbon dating but i have been unable to find an answer or explanation to my challenge on that.

i wonder if anybody here can point me in the right direction or possibly answer it.. the first is that it seems most if not all of these dating methods rely on measuring decay.

unless i am mistaken, decay is not equal everywhere.

kaik

Carbon dating is only used in dating rather recent material going back couple thousand years. This is used in archeology, pollen in the sediments, etc. For the age of the rocks there are numerous methods of radiometric dating, from which the most common is potassium-argon, uranium-lead, and zircon. Each radiometric dating measure the conversion rate. The elements used in the dating are stable and will decay from isotop into stable element at the same rate (from uranium to lead for example it takes half-rate of 704 millions). Lead, argon, and zircon are extremely stable element. Argon is inert, noble gas, that does not react under normal condition (only in extreme lab setting it will create a compound, which is unstable).

We have rather sensitive instruments that can measure the rate of the decay and the amount of isotops in material. There are about 15 common isotops in the nature that can be used for radiometric dating in geology:

Isotope	Half-life (years)	Found in nature?
In-115	4.41 x 10 14	yes
Gd-152	1.08 x 10 14	yes
Ba-130	7.00 x 10 13	yes
Pt-190	6.50 x 10 11	yes
Sm-147	1.06 x 10 11	yes
La-138	1.02 x 10 11	yes
Rb-87	4.97 x 10 10	yes
Re-187	4.12 x 10 10	yes
Lu-176	3.76 x 10 10	yes
Th-232	1.40 x 10 10	yes
U-238	4.47 x 10 9	yes
K-40	1.25 x 10 9	yes
U-235	7.04 x 10 8	yes
Pu-244	8.00 x 10 7	yes
Sm-146	6.80 x 10 7	yes

Combination of various dating method, we can rather precisely identify a specific age. Zircon is the most used to determine the age of the earth:

http://www.amnh.org/education/resources/rfl/web/essaybooks/earth/cs_zircon_chronolgy.html

Besides the radiometric dating science uses additonal method determining age of the earth based on the magnetic field, paleomagnetism; from sediments, etc.

Earth, Sun, and our planetary system can trace its life and origin to explosion of supernova that was huge enough to have producted various metals, gases, and elements within our solar system. We people are the descendant of supernova.

73

Hardcore JW Friend Predicts the End of the Organization within 10 years.

by kneehighmiah in

jw
friends

had a conversation with an aspiring elder.

he said the end must be close because people are so discouraged that the organization can't last more than 10 years.

this is before we received the please come to the international convention letter.

kaik

Many JW have not expected to grow old, age, get sick and die in poverty as they were told that the END is just months away year after year. The members did not save money for retirement, have not get mentally prepared to get old and have failing health as they expected the Armageddon will solve all their problem within normal human span. After decades living and worshiping lies many see that they were decieved. They see the older to die, their life wasted without having children, career, education, good living standard, or enjoyable life. Their hope was in Armageddon, but this became an illusion. Armangeddon is not comming to rescue them from the misery.

I do not think WT and entire organization will collapse, but it will face major shakedown. They may loose half of the membership, but they will still go on. The previous lies will be forgotten, hidden from the eyes of the believers, past predictions omitted, and history whitewashed. Another year for big "A" will be proposed. JW is like bad slot machine that never pays off.

12

Greatest Period in World History

by GreenhornChristian in

four years ago i was still in the org.

completly enjoying an extended coffee break when an elderly (80+) brother coyly remarked with a half smile on his face and holding up his third cup as if to salute his revelation "these sure are critical times hard to deal with.

i nervously laughed along and then quickly changed the subject as a dutiful elder should.

kaik

I love the link. I would absolutely not like reliving era of my parents and grandparents. I would not mind to travel back in time to see how people lived for the weekend, but I have no whatsoever desire to live as people did in the past. While our generation has a lot of problem and stress, and we have not solved all the social and political ills, people universally live better. There are more choices in the stores, better goods, better cars, easier travel everywhere... Can you imagine life 100 years ago or 75 years ago, with a Depression, A. Hitler, Stalin, and other dictators in power. Hell no. Even JW are free to preach their nonsense almost everywhere.