Workers rights had generally improved through the 19th century. Remember that until 1780's most of European peasantry was serf and was not free. Serfdom survived in Eastern Europe in Russia well until 1860's. There was generally difference between serf who was a property of the landlord in 1780's and industrial proletariat in 1850 who did not need a permit to get married, move, or change profession. Therefore, the workers were at least more free than slave laborer on the field. Exploitation of workers was rampant well till 190o's, but many countries had already implemented regulations, pensions, social services, insurance. France had these widely available since 1830-1848, Germany under Bismarck, and Austria-Hungary at least since 1900's. Europe and USA became wealthy over many generations. Pioneers arrived with hopes and shovel to get a piece of uncultivated land. Germany became leading European power not through collonialism but through extensive engineering, research, and capital into the industries. It lost two wars, it was ruined more than any other western country, had 1/5 of its population expelled, yet managed to beat victorious France, Russia, and UK with its living standard. Smaller countries like Slovenia, Estonia, Czech Republic did not collonized anyone, they were under communism for 40+ years, yet managed to be among top 25 countries in the world with a quality of life. Again, it is not responsibility of 1st and 2nd world to build 3rd world. Its citizens need to do it for themselves. Nobody could do it better then themsleves. Richer countries could help with know how and technology, but it is illusion that wealthy countries could on their tax money and wealth redistribution to change anything extensively in such huge region like Africa. Even wealthy countries have their own problems and they have to address them before they can help anyone else.
Posts by kaik
-
52Are first world countries to blame for the bulk of third world squalor?
by tootired2care inthroughout several past threads various posters have emphatically made the point that countries like great britian, united states, france etc.
basically countries where white people exist, are to blame for the poverty in many other third world nations.
some have even went so far as to suggest that the first world is to blame for all third world conditions.. i often see excuses such as these for why a country refuses to provide clean water, some food and basic sanitation for its people:.
-
-
-
82
Come with me, back to the 1980s--you know want to.
by FlyingHighNow ini don't know about ya'll, but i did not appreciate the 1980s enough.
i was too busy lamenting how different they were from the 1960s and 1970s to bask in and appreciate how wonderful they were.. this is 80s music, especially new wave music, and 80s fashion and culture appreciation thread.
what did you love about the 80s?
-
-
kaik
Who remembers Yazoo, Samantha Fox, Sabrina, A-Ha, Nena, Erasure, Europe, ABC, Pet Shop Boys.. what a wonderfull music at that time.
-
74
7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem
by Tiresias inauthors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
-
-
kaik
Fisherman, I do not debate if Revelation and any part of the Bible is inspired in this thread. I only pointed out as did others that Revelation speaks on Rome not Jerusalem. And I agree with it, and there are tons of scholary topic on it including the best researchers like Pagels from Princeton University. I studied as well in Europe 20+ years ago. Generally, the identification of Revelation with Jewish Jerusalem of the 1st century is much modern invention, which often was rooted in deep antisemitism that attempts to prove that ancient Judaism was rejected thus punished by God, versus Christianity as a choosen new religion. This also reason why poster like designs said that ideas like this are partially anti-semitic. From point of authror of Revelation who was Jew (probably) and Christian as was the case in the 1st century, it would not make a sense to be concerned anymore with Jewish faith. He did not write on Jewish religion or its religious structure, but various churches that spread out after Pauls' ministry. Jerusalem was not free city before 70AD and certainly not afterward. It did not rule even over its own population, it was a part of much larger state. Any case, for almost 2000 years Christians tries to interpret Revelation with poor result.
Tiresias, welcome. Jews do not have centralized religion and they have not for 2500 years. There is no universal acceptance on all ideas from OT among them. There were various rabbinic schools that often had contradicting ideas. The ancient Jewish temple was idealized as long lost glorious past that would be restored by Messiah. Judaism survived the destruction of temple, but the events of 70-113-135 transformed it. Many contemporary religious figures of Judaism were actually worried of assimiliation into much sophisticated Greco-Roman culture. This was biggest threat to the national identity which was by the events of Jewish revolts reaffirmed.
-
74
7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem
by Tiresias inauthors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
-
-
kaik
The authorship of Revelation is questioned by so many sources, which some of them go back to the medieval times, Enlightenment, and modern Era. Some research say that it was written before 70AD, and others as late as 90-110AD. Other sources I have read said that Revelation was written on two parts, the earlier before 70A.D. and rest in 80-90AD. With so many often contradicting information, it is hard to make good decision. What makes me agree with Pagels and others with the association of Jerusalem with Rome are numerous references regardless in what decade this crazy scroll was written: Beast, 666, Sodom, ruling over many nations, wealthy, powerfull, oppressor of the Christians. Jerusalem before 70AD was a provincial city under the control of Roman administration. Its rulling elite did not extend their power beyond its provice. When Jesus had problem, he moved outside Judea to Tyre and Sidon to escape their censorship. Rome was enforcing its policy and did not mind to use a tools of oppression if necessary to anyone, including to Judea. After 70AD, it was ruined city with even less internal freedom and nominal independence. Jewish administration that survived 70AD could not engage in widespread oppression of Christians. It did not had sufficient resources to do so, but Roman Empire certainly did. Prophecy toward ruined, unfree city like Jerusalem does not make any sense from the context of the Revelation.
-
75
CO's visit ends with a bombshell!!!
by nowwhat? inat the end of his final talk he said of the gb: they are telling the higher ups , "start getting ready we're not going to be around much longer!
" and we expect the angels to release the four winds any day now!
" my first thought was why are you building a corporate country club then?!
-
-
kaik
In 1980's/90's we had a crazy guy in the KH who used to say that Armageddon will happen in year. He continued to say that as far I remember as kid until I walked away as adult in 1994.
-
20
Three Types of People and Their Destinies!
by Kalos in[christiansincluding jwstried very hard with their evangelism among the hindus, but did not accomplish much.
because the hindus are in possession of something better.
the actual name of hindus is sanatana dharma (eternal duty) which is defined as taking delight in the welfare of all beings (bhagavat gita 12:4, 20) hindus (which literally means those who live by the sides of indus river) is a superficial and geographical name given to them later.
-
-
kaik
Walking through the streets, I see three types of people: males, females, and shreks whose gender is impossible to guess due physiognomy features of the individuals.
-
82
Come with me, back to the 1980s--you know want to.
by FlyingHighNow ini don't know about ya'll, but i did not appreciate the 1980s enough.
i was too busy lamenting how different they were from the 1960s and 1970s to bask in and appreciate how wonderful they were.. this is 80s music, especially new wave music, and 80s fashion and culture appreciation thread.
what did you love about the 80s?
-
-
kaik
I love the 1980's. The music, fashion, hairstyle, colors. Time of big hope. I lived behind the Iron Curtain and watched communist system to crumble. More freedom. Got permit to travel to West and got my first passport. Had my first job. So many of people I knew were alive in that decade, but are long gone, including my father. While I would not like to relive the time again, I would like to visit it for one day to see places that were changed. Dine out in places that do not exist anymore. Chat with people who died since then. It is hard to believe that it is 25+ years in the history.
-
74
7 Reasons Why Babylon the Great was Jerusalem
by Tiresias inauthors david chilton (1987) and james stuart russell (1878) propose that the revelation is primarily a prophecy of the destruction of ancient jerusalem by the roman armies.
the revelation is jerusalem's armageddon (mountain of assembled roman troops).
i see the revelation as a war siren warning the first century christians of the imminent destruction of the city.
-
-
kaik
Stirred, thank you for your input. I tend to agree with designs that threads like these turns into anti-semitic bashing which is than justified by analysis of nonsense from Book of Revelation. This is not the first post that is turning into it nor it is last. Various scholars like Pagels, Mary P. Fisher and others going back to the 18th century are clearly stating that Jewish nation and faith does not bear a responsibility fo the death of Jesus. Majority of Jews in that time never heard of Jesus and his followers. Romans executed Jesus for sedetion. Jews also blamed christains for striring up troubles and bringing Roman punishment to the rebellious provice. Many individuals for hundreds of years interpreting Jewish misfortunate as a divine punishment for not accepting Jesus as Messiah and derives its reasoning from NT written by Jews for the Jews. The split between Christianity and Judaism happened decades after death of Jesus. People who lived in 70AD were most likely not even alive at the times of Jesus as average life expectancy in Roman Empire was around 33 years.
Jesus's audience was Jewish population and he was a critic of customs of the rulling elite and religious hiearchy. As Jew he was not anti-semitic. Jews did not see him as Messiah, only a few of his followers, many who were tied by family and tribe. After studying Judaism, I can understand why Jews do not see him as the Messiah, because he did not fullfill what would be expected from him. There were many other Messiah in the Jewish faith over the centuries, and only one was turned into world religion. The definitive split between Judaism and Christianity can be traced to Paul who invalidated Jews laws by making Torah obsolote, where its upkeep was not necessary for achieving God's approval. However, putting salvation through Jesus death made Christianity viable. No person of Jewish faith could reconcile these two as they do not believe in original sin, adamic sin, nor anyone can be a redeemer between you and G-D, and paid out for your sin.
Revelation have many different interpretations, but I tend to agree with Pagels that it was dealing with Rome. Centuries later when Rome became a Christian city, Revelation did not make anymore any sense. With the raise of extreme evangelical movement in the 19th century. many find the identification with Jewish Jerusalem. This much modern concept, and does not make much a sense in the context of the era in which it was written.
-
64
What christians don't want to admit
by opusdei1972 inwhen i left the wt organization, i continued to believe in the bible, so i wanted to confirm and refine, as much as possible, my faith that the true god is in the bible.
so i began to discuss with skilled christians, who were also ex-witnesses.
but i was surprised when some of them tried to relax my fundamentalist position on the literalness of the genesis account.
-
-
kaik
Jews do not believe in Original, Adamic sin. They figured out loooong time ago. Judaism also teaches that there is no redeemer for anyone sin. Everyone is responsible for his or her own sin.
Story of Adam and Eve is nothing more than moral story. There was no Adam, nor Eve. Death was always present with origin of life, and every living organism will die.
-
52
Are first world countries to blame for the bulk of third world squalor?
by tootired2care inthroughout several past threads various posters have emphatically made the point that countries like great britian, united states, france etc.
basically countries where white people exist, are to blame for the poverty in many other third world nations.
some have even went so far as to suggest that the first world is to blame for all third world conditions.. i often see excuses such as these for why a country refuses to provide clean water, some food and basic sanitation for its people:.
-
-
kaik
Of course it is double standard. Rich Europeans and Northern Americans get blaimed for everything wrong that happens with humanity. Who cares that they provided more for charity, were in Haiti after earthquake, or Indian Ocean after tsunami, and I even bothered to donate moeny to both of these disasters. Yet, I should feel responsbile for something failure like Haiti that secured independence 210 years ago. Current exploitation of resources are not as much problem of the rich countries, but corporation that can located anywhere in the world. I do not see how masses of poor in USA, Europe do benefit much from it either. They are better of than the poor in Africa due better welfare and social system, not to mention infrastructure, and bureaocracy.
When it comes to Sub-Sahar Africa, only its people are ultimatelly responsible for creating successful society. Some countries do better like Ghana and everyone could follow their lead. Europeans and East Asians were not always rich nor developed. It was run for several generations. 150 years ago, Ireland was starving; today it is one the wealthiest country in the world. The same success can happen anyone else. I do not see how present citizenry of former colonial powers like UK, France, and Belgium are responsible for 19th century injustice. I do not bear present Germany responsible for horrors of WWII that were unleashed upon Czechoslovakia in 1942-1945. Present British government is not responsible for Irish famine in 1840's. I do see it as hypocritical to put the blame on them, but the same blame for Romans and Mongosl could not be made. Anyone who was directly responsible for colonization of Congo by bastard like Leopold is long dead.