Posts by M.J.

12

Help Requested PO and his wife coming over tomorrow for 'study'

by insearchoftruth in

my wife had a bible study with the sister and her daughter actually yesterday evening (i am guessing that the daughter needed some time), i was in the living room at the time, and i will post the notes from this conversation later this evening (at work now, don't have them here).

my wife had wanted to learn how to read the bible from them, but they of course manipulated her to a book study within two weeks!.

at the end of this bible study (they started the bible teach book, got to paragraph 13 in chapter one) the sister asked my wife if i still wanted to talk to her husband on wednesday, i said i would be very interested, but i want my wife and i to both be involved in the discussions (want to have her hear what we are talking about, firstly if i can ask an interesting question, and secondly i want her to see i am not a raging apostate to the gentleman - and he is a pretty nice guy).. .

M.J.

I studied for 2.5 years. I know how it works.

Be polite. Respect what they're saying. Act like a willing student...someone that wants to understand where they are coming from. In reality, you will learn a lot from them, how they think, and what JWs are about. This will actually help you. Learning about JWs here really doesn't give you a complete picture. Ask questions as if you are genuinely curious how to resolve the logical dilemmas that the info brings up. Not like you're trying to trap them. It may take a bit of damage control to get back into the "non hostile" category, btw.

To be prepared, use the Lingle Bible Teach link I mentioned to you before.

If they don't answer to your satisfaction, just look troubled, but seemingly not wanting to cause too much of a disruption over it. Ultimately they will want to move on. Their thing is that once you get the "big picture" all the little pieces of the puzzle will all suddenly fit together. Politely allow them to do move on.

Also, you have to be selective on what to ask about. Save up for a good one, but don't stop to analyze stuff too often or be "nit picky" or else they'll want to separate you from your wife into two separate studies...Because you're too slow! Also try not to get too sidetracked into off-topic doctrinal stuff. Ask if such and such doctrine will be discussed in the book later on. Defer discussion on that topic until "we cover it".

22

Literature Request: "God's Kingdom of a thousand Years Has Approached"

by insearchoftruth in

want to read the part on the selection of the wts as 'god's sole channel'.. thanks!.

M.J.

Compare with the Nov. 1, 1944 Watchtower, pages 331-332:

Fulfilled prophecies make it certain that Jehovah’s Theocratic Servant Christ Jesus came to the temple in 1918. Then he entered into judgment with the consecrated servants of Jehovah. He did so in order to determine who of them should be retained in God’s service and be constituted and organized as His "faithful and wise servant" class to do the evangelistic work thenceforth...
During the period from 1878 to 1918 Jehovah’s devoted servants were endeavoring to act unitedly in doing the witness work pictured by that of Elijah the prophet and hence referred to as "the Elijah work". Like Elijah’s work, it was against religion or demonism and for the vindication of God’s name. This work, conducted under the leadership of Christ Jesus, came to an end in 1918, when he came to the temple as Jehovah’s Messenger and Judge. (See Malachi 3: 1.) The judgment tests which he then and there applied separated out from Jehovah’s professed servants an "evil servant" class, which followed after man-worship, selfish ambitions, and self-righteousness, and which aimed after the control of the governing body.
A remnant manifested purity of heart and devotion to the Lord God and to his Theocratic organization and the interests of his kingdom. This faithful remnant was approved under the judgment trial, and Christ Jesus the King gathered them unto unity with himself at the temple. He adjudged these faithful anointed servants of Jehovah God to be the "faithful and wise servant" class under himself as Head. To them he committed the interests of the Kingdom. That is, he laid upon them the duty and privilege to carry on the evangelistic work as Jehovah’s witnesses in ’preaching the evangel of the kingdom in all the habitable earth for a witness to all the nations’. This they must do, down to the battle of Armageddon, when the Kingdom will destroy all the enemies of The Theocracy and then the millennial reign of Christ Jesus will begin. This "faithful and wise servant" class is the real "Society" of Jehovah’s anointed remnant. That is, it includes all those of the faithful spirit-begotten remnant, whereas the legal corporation, the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, does not include all such.

Even in the mid-40s this doctrine wasn't about picking the one true group on earth. It was to discredit all those Bible Students who left and stopped following Rutherford!

22

Literature Request: "God's Kingdom of a thousand Years Has Approached"

by insearchoftruth in

want to read the part on the selection of the wts as 'god's sole channel'.. thanks!.

M.J.

I think, you and I are technically oriented. To determine "truth", we want to see the data.

Our wives, on the other hand, are more experiential (is that a word?), "feeling" and intuition based...so we really tend to fall flat on our faces when showing them our charts and diagrams. It took me a while to figure that one out!

I was watching the movie License to Wed the other day and it sort of reminded me of the UBM thing! You ought to check it out. The guy miserably fails in trying to get him and his fiance out of Rev. Frank's marriage preparation course. He resorts to trying to dig up dirt on Reverend Frank himself and makes an ass out of himself. To his fiance, he was missing the whole point.

Likewise, your wife perceives positive things in the program her JW friends are presenting her. A way to get on the "right team" and get into God's good graces, and of course to get the big fat prize in the end. I guess step one is to explore what really "does it" for her and start from there.

22

Literature Request: "God's Kingdom of a thousand Years Has Approached"

by insearchoftruth in

want to read the part on the selection of the wts as 'god's sole channel'.. thanks!.

M.J.

It's simply an example of them impressing the heck out of her and her believing that this experience must be divine in origin. Show her it's possible to recreate this experience in the lab (other cults). Hint, hint.

8

Romans 11 : 26 - all Israel will be saved - Which one, and When ?

by aligot ripounsous in

the question of readers article in june jws only wt magazine (the one which is studied in august) deals with romans 11 : 26 where paul writes that "all israel will be saved".

as we know, if ct russell believed that this statement was to be understood literally and he expected the jews to convert to christianity as a sign of christ's return, the current position of the wts, as explained in this qfr article, is that "spiritual" israel and not fleshly israel is what it is about in rom.

chapter 11 and christ's return will be marked by the completion of the whole number of the 144 000 anointed.

M.J.

So lemme get this straight. The WTS is dividing up the subject of Paul's discourse here into two separate groups? The ones who go through a "hardening" and committing a "false step" are natural Israel, but when it comes to those who "will be saved", NOW he's talking about "spiritual Israel"? When all along, Paul is simply talking about "Israel"?

That's really a stretch!

Is it possible for someone to post the QFR? Thanks!

22

Literature Request: "God's Kingdom of a thousand Years Has Approached"

by insearchoftruth in

want to read the part on the selection of the wts as 'god's sole channel'.. thanks!.

M.J.

Whups, I went back to edit my post, cause I thought it was a bit harsh, and not helpful.

22

Literature Request: "God's Kingdom of a thousand Years Has Approached"

by insearchoftruth in

want to read the part on the selection of the wts as 'god's sole channel'.. thanks!.

M.J.

I ordered mine through abebooks. I think I know where you're going with that... I think the book might be better for showing how they taught 1976 was the end than for trying to nail them on FDS doctrine inconsistencies. Ultimately, they are confident in/happy with the FDS TODAY, regardless of the reasons. The reasons and mythology around why and how regarding the FDS is only in place as window dressing, to affirm what they have already accepted, IMO.

5

The rich man and Lazarus parable: ancient literature parallels?

by behemot in

in their book heaven: a history, colleen mcdannell and bernhard lang mention that some scholars doubt the authenticity of the parable of the rich man and lazarus (luke 16), given its strict parallels in ancient literature.. to support this they make reference to the following essays (which i don't have access to):.

isidore levy, la legende de pythagore: de grece en palestine, campion, paris 1927, pp.

310-12; ronald f. hock, lazarus and mycillus: graeco-roman backgrounds to luke 16:19-31, in journal of biblical literature, 196 (1987), pp.

M.J.

There are definite parallels in older Jewish literature. Cue in...Leolaia...

35

Are you Racist?

by Warlock in

jw
friends

well, are you?.

warlock .

M.J.

I think racism is just one specific instance of the baggage that comes with the human tendency to form an identity according to a perceived social category.

I think problems with this tendency can start to arise with the degree of perceived prestige of one's "in group", which pretty much always comes at the expense of the status of the "out groups".

When the "in group" happens to be a race of people, people nowdays readily recognize that there's a problem. But this "in group" vs "out group" bias is really at the heart of it all, and not many people recognize that.

http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/06/06/25/people_who_drive_silver_or_blue_cars_should_not_read_this.htm

36

Another push to make US use %@#* $1.00 coins

by Gregor in

the gov't has been trying to get us to use these clunkers for years.

i think this is the third try in the last 20 yrs.

this time they are so desperate they are putting out ps spots talking about how much this will save the gov't (as we all know the gov't is always looking for ways to save money) and that, of all things, it is a green thing to do.... most men carry their money in their pockets/wallet.

M.J.

In my trips up to the "great white north" I learned to appreciate those loonies & toonies.
Being able to buy a few beers w/ a pocket full of change wasn't bad.

We simultaneously need to get rid of pennies to offset the weight in the pockets though.