Posts by Magnum

75

FORGIVENESS ... You owe it to your health

by ABibleStudent in

i'm cleaning up my home of unnecessary magazines/newsletters that i have accumulated over the years.

while i was working as an employee i did not feel like i had the time to read them.

now that i'm not working as an employee but work as a volunteer to network and maintain workplace skills, i seem to have more time to read.. after reading many threads by former jws, i thought that the following article might help some to heal.

Magnum

myelaine -

That was a load of kumbaya to me.

the fact that the WTBTS is made up of family and friends ensures that the means of "abolition" is altered. The dynamics are completely different than other historical movements.

Like, what??? In what way is the WTBTS made up of family and friends? Even if it is, a lot of historical oppressive groups were made up of people connected in some way. That's irrelevant. I don't see that the dynamics are different.

If the WTBTS leaders are taking on and perpetuating a greater siege mentality then sustained anger and hateful words toward them will lead to even more isolationist behaviour. It wont ever encourage dialogue (which would be the most obvious path to change).

If they want to resort to more isolationist behavior, that's their problem. That's not going to keep me from exercising my sense of justice and exposing them. Do you honestly think that the org is ever going to be open to dialogue? It's moving further away from that. I really think you're naive if you think the org is going "change" because of open dialogue.

Compassion, love and belief in something better is a powerful means of change, in yourself and for others. Jesus practiced this truth the bible never portrays Him as expecting His anger to change people

I personally don't expect to "change" the org. The purpose is not always to change. When (according to the Bible) God destroys people at Armageddon, it won't be to change them; it'll be to get rid of them. So, again, the purpose is not always to change an entity, but sometimes to remove it or expose it so it can't do anymore harm. Would compassion, love, etc. have changed Hitler and his cronies? No, it took anger to remove him and his followers and his system. I think it's controlled, constructive anger that moves many to work towards exposing the org. What if Paul Grundy hadn't had some form of anger? Would he have created jwfacts.com? That site has been very helpful to many. Everybody's having a passive, peace and love mentality would allow the bullies of the world free reign.

And, by the way, the god of the Bible is known for his anger, his being a "manly person of war".

75

FORGIVENESS ... You owe it to your health

by ABibleStudent in

i'm cleaning up my home of unnecessary magazines/newsletters that i have accumulated over the years.

while i was working as an employee i did not feel like i had the time to read them.

now that i'm not working as an employee but work as a volunteer to network and maintain workplace skills, i seem to have more time to read.. after reading many threads by former jws, i thought that the following article might help some to heal.

Magnum

I agree with Band on the Run. I believe that too much of a readiness to forgive leads to being passive. Passive people don't accomplish much. They don't right wrongs. They don't conquer injustice. They don't conquer evil. I believe that those who have that "kumbaya", hippy, peace and love mentality are naive and will be conquered. See how ready the org is to forgive you if you dare use your brain and question anything it says or does. It can question and nitpick you and you're supposed to passively accept it with gratitude. But dare you question or challenge it.

Great movements in history were sustained by anger. Being angry at injustice is a feeling that should be encouraged. As long as you are aware of being angry and can control your actions, anger is good. The United States would never have formed without anger.

Amen!

Anger can propel you out of a cult. There is every reason to be angry with the Witnesses. I feel it is silly for anger to be bad. It is a human emotion that allows us to survive. Jesus was angry. Killing innocent people in anger is not good. I feel evolution or God gave us this emotional repertoire. Too many Christian feel that being saccharine nice is a good thing.

Amen!

No, anger has played a great role in human society. It must be channeled. People should become angrier at social injustice. Anger can fuel you to respond effectively

and Amen!!!

16

Past couple years of being awake might be catching up with me

by noonehome in

i was a little too honest with a super close friend who is one of the most important people in my life.

my mistake.

she talked to an elder about my doubts...i know she had my best interests in mind and i hold nothing against her.

Magnum

My god! I'm seeing more and more every day how cultish and controlling JWs are - like they have some kind of control over adherents. First, you might consider the girl to be a dear friend, but I would reconsider that. She might be really caring and sincere, but right now she is blind; she is ignorant (I say that respectfully, meaning lacking in knowledge, naive, and unaware). She might even be lacking intelligence. She evidently does not see anything wrong in JWdom, when the evidence is abundant that something is wrong. Most of the intelligent JWs I know sense something is wrong.

Think about it. She's really condescending (maybe not intentionally); she thinks she's in a higher, better position than you are, and she's stooping down to your level, trying to "help" you - you poor, lost soul. She considers herself to be strong and you to be weak. She has discussed you with the "strong" men, the shining knights, the heros in the congregation, and they, in their desire to help the lowly peasant, have agreed to grace him with their presence and enlighten him and attempt to bring him out of his condition of ignorance, weakness, and stupidity.

Damn, that's infuriating. But that's actually the way it is. JWs are smug, self-righteous, & condescending. I'm so mad thinking about this that I'd love for you tell them "lick my a$$". However, I feel that way because I'm angry and I'm not telling you to actually say that. However, you could play this situation to get something out of it. You could play the role they have aleady assigned to you - one of weakness and ignorance. Accept their offer to enlighten you - to save you from your ghetto of ignorance and weakness. Act thankful and appreciative and humble, but as the "studies" (the one-sided indoctrination sessions) progress, play dumb and ask questions - questions to get them to think - ones they can't answer. We can help you with that if you would like. Just don't let them have control of the studies. They think those publications you mentioned are delivered by angels and they have all the answers.

You could bring up questions like:

Well this is one of the things I've wondered about. Why, If we believe that animals originally didn't kill each other, does it seem that they were designed to kill? Why, for example, does it seems that poisonous snakes are desgined to kill? They have precision instruments for the delivery of poison. They have glands which secrete the poison, which is a complex substance. They have muscles that contract to force the poison out. Their brains are programmed to be able to precisely time and control the delivery of the poison. Many also have the ability to see in infrared so they can track prey at night. They have forked tongues that allow them to sample extremely small levels of the scent of prey. They have jaws that can dislocate to allow them to swallow large prey. Doesn't it seem they were designed to kill.

There are many other examples. At what level in the zoosphere did animals not eat each other before the rebellion in Eden? Did sharks not eat other ocean creatures? Did they eat seaweed? Did birds not eat insects? Did spiders not eat flies? If not, then what was the purpose of the web? We say 'design requirs a designer', well, I just see overwhelming evidence that animals were designed to kill. Can you help me with that?

It'd be so much easier to somehow 'brainwash' myself into believing everything once again and just go for it...but I've learned too much I don't know if it's possible.

Whatever you do, don't allow yourself to be brainwashed. If you do continue as a JW, you will never be good enough for them and will always be viewed as being weak. You will always be stigmatized. I don't see how you could ever progress to being an appointed man. I was one, but couldn't fake it as I began to realize TTATT more. You will waste countless hours of your life. If you do go to meetings, at least get a tablet computer so they will think you are following along with them in electronic format, but you can read something educational and better yourself.

75

FORGIVENESS ... You owe it to your health

by ABibleStudent in

i'm cleaning up my home of unnecessary magazines/newsletters that i have accumulated over the years.

while i was working as an employee i did not feel like i had the time to read them.

now that i'm not working as an employee but work as a volunteer to network and maintain workplace skills, i seem to have more time to read.. after reading many threads by former jws, i thought that the following article might help some to heal.

Magnum

According to the Bible, Jah only forgives the repentant. According to JWs I should be like Jah. So I don't forgive them. Of what have they repented? They are still smug, self-righteous, and judgemental. The org took the prime of my life. If one had been defrauded of a million dollars, would he be ready to forgive? Maybe so, but not I. I can easily show that I lost a million just considering the time I spent as a reg pio and how much I would have made if I had worked and been paid all those hours. And that doesn't take into consideration any of the other stuff like serving the congregation, donations, and lost opportunities.

I'm still being stung by JWs. Ain't no forgiveness in the near future from me. I simply want justice.

I am a very forgiving person. If JWs would show some sign of repentance, I could forgive, but they get worse as time goes on. If they could just admit some wrong - some of the bad stuff in JW history, that some of the doctrines (blood, generation, all animals vegetarian before rebellion in eden, etc.) don't make sense, I'd be more ready to forgive. But no, they in their ignorance and cluelessness, have divine truth and everybody else is wrong.

Gradually move away from blame to accepting that what happened, happened, and that it is in the past. You can't do anything about the past.

But it's not in the past to me. It will affect me every day until I drop dead. It's not in the past in that JWs still want me to answer to them and they question me and I feel like I have to hide from them. Damn them. I think it can be detrimental to be too passive and forgiving.

112

Why are JWs so afraid of apostates?

by Magnum in

why are jws so afraid of apostates?

their view of apostates seems to be out of the realm of the ordinary, the natural.

its as if the words of apostates are supernatual or spiritistic as if apostates are some kind of jedi knights who can slightly wave their hands or twitch their eyes and bring one under a spell.

Magnum

emeth -

How do you define "turn against their former faith"? Do you define it as not believing every word in the Watchtower, not accepting every change in policy or doctrine? Actually, it's the faith that 'turns against' anyone who dares use his brain cells and really seek truth and understanding using reason and logic.

I'm not turning against my former faith; that's not my intent or goal. My goal is to seek fact and truth and expose anything that is not such and not be punished and opposed by an inquisition committee for so doing. As a JW, one is not allowed to do any real seeking, searching, and questioning. He can't do what Proverbs chapter 2 says to do - to seek for hidden treasure. He can be a good little JW only if he sits quietly and nods in agreement at every word in the Watchtower even though many of the articles are written by so-called other sheep who might have fewer qualifications than he does and no connecitons with any deity whatsoever and are subject to change.

I found myself to be bored to death and spiritually starving as a JW. I did do personal research and I questioned but I had to do it in secret - in hiding so I wouldn't be 'actively turned against' by the org. I swear I know an elder who was warned because he was reading and looking up stuff in older Watchtower magazines. He confided that in me. He told me "but it's our history!"

You just don't get it. You can check in as a JW, but you can't amicably check out. Even you in your last post admitted (perhaps inadvertently) that one has to "fade". He can't just be honest and leave and explain why even if he has no intent to actively oppose. If he has family in, he will be punished. He will be viewed as being weak when he might be far stronger spiritually and otherwise than anyone in his congregation.

112

Why are JWs so afraid of apostates?

by Magnum in

why are jws so afraid of apostates?

their view of apostates seems to be out of the realm of the ordinary, the natural.

its as if the words of apostates are supernatual or spiritistic as if apostates are some kind of jedi knights who can slightly wave their hands or twitch their eyes and bring one under a spell.

Magnum

emeth - As I understand it, to JWs, an apostate is one who was a JW, but disagrees with JW policy and/or doctrine. JWs "despise" people who fit that description? So do Catholics have the right to "despise" all the apostate Catholics among JWs? I think the whole issue hinges upon whether anybody actually has the absolute truth. If we can prove that, then perhaps we can define an apostate as one who opposes that. Can you prove to us that JWs have the absolute truth. Can you prove that this latest generation teaching is the truth? If you can't, then how can you "despise" those who don't believe it? If you can, then you will just define JWs as being apostates for all the years they taught a different generation doctrine.

112

Why are JWs so afraid of apostates?

by Magnum in

why are jws so afraid of apostates?

their view of apostates seems to be out of the realm of the ordinary, the natural.

its as if the words of apostates are supernatual or spiritistic as if apostates are some kind of jedi knights who can slightly wave their hands or twitch their eyes and bring one under a spell.

Magnum

DATA-DOG - I was thinking the exact same thing; you just had the balls to actually say it.

trujw - We are powerful, but it's only because we have fact, logic, and reason as our allies - not that we have some kind of magical superpowers. JWs are almost scared to even look at an apostate. They seem to think they have to almost cover their ears up so they won't be put under the spell of apostates. The odd thing is that as Laika said earlier, JWs are extremely confident they have the truth. They think they have logic and reason on their side. So, it's hard to understand the fear from their perspective.

Phaedra - Your story exemplifies that fear I'm referring to:

shaking in my boots as I hit the send button. The deep ingrained fear I felt made me feel vulnerable and unprotected

This probably has something to do with it:

the myopic view the JW ORG has programmed into the unfortunate children in its culture who have no other choice but to accept what is told to them by the adults in charge

Yeah, a lot can't go there in their minds, but once one does, it seems that he just can't go back; it could never be the same. He's seen the little old man behind the curtain, except that the little old man he's seen is not as benevolent as the one in the story.

I don't know why I suddenly grew the courage to question things, but I'm glad I did. So many others cannot even go there in their own minds. I broke out of the JW box and can never go back in.

112

Why are JWs so afraid of apostates?

by Magnum in

why are jws so afraid of apostates?

their view of apostates seems to be out of the realm of the ordinary, the natural.

its as if the words of apostates are supernatual or spiritistic as if apostates are some kind of jedi knights who can slightly wave their hands or twitch their eyes and bring one under a spell.

Magnum

Laika:

JWs are both extremely confident they have the truth and yet are literally terrified of opposing views. It's a very strange phenomenon.

I knew both of those points but never really put them together like that. Wow! That is strange.

112

Why are JWs so afraid of apostates?

by Magnum in

why are jws so afraid of apostates?

their view of apostates seems to be out of the realm of the ordinary, the natural.

its as if the words of apostates are supernatual or spiritistic as if apostates are some kind of jedi knights who can slightly wave their hands or twitch their eyes and bring one under a spell.

Magnum

emeth-

JWs despise any from among their ranks who question and/or oppose their teachings and way of doing things even when they themselves are allowed to oppose such whenever they feel like changing? JWs can oppose and expose everybody else, but they can't be opposed and challenged?

There is no absolute truth with JWs. It's just whatever they choose to guess at today is the truth. What if I had opposed the generation teaching in 1994 and said that it was two different groups of anointed whose lives would overlap? I would have been disfellowshipped for apostasy. I would have been disfellowshipped for teaching something that is now "truth" for JWs. JWs are right just because they say so. Anybody who once believed but starts to question or disagree is an evil 'despised' apostate. So who was the apostate who first doubted the pre-1995 generation teaching? It had to start with somebody. Who was the first to suggest the teaching was wrong? Is he disfellowshipped?

So JWs have the right to "despise" those from among them who question and/or disagree with current teachings, yet they claim that apostates are the evil ones who do the despising. Do you "despise" the one who first challenged the pre-1995 generation teaching?

I was a sincere JW. I gave the prime of my life in extreme sacrifice and really thought I was doing right. The whole time I had unanswered questions and some things didn't seem right. I was told to wait on Jehovah. I did. But the more I waited, the more my questions grew and the more things didn't seem right. You despise me because I seek truth? You love the mindless, clueless, ignorant, self-righteous, deluded, smug, JW drones who never question and reason and use their minds? You love them, but you despise me? I believe you are the one who has apostatized.

And it does have to do with fear. JWs are scared shitless of any who have knowledge. They are terrified of calling on householders who have knowledge of the Bible, knowledge of JW history, etc. They run with their tails tucked between their legs. The JW higher-ups are scared. Why do you think they won't appear on TV & radio shows? Why won't they have public debates like the old-timers would? They're scared; they know they wouldn't stand a chance.

112

Why are JWs so afraid of apostates?

by Magnum in

why are jws so afraid of apostates?

their view of apostates seems to be out of the realm of the ordinary, the natural.

its as if the words of apostates are supernatual or spiritistic as if apostates are some kind of jedi knights who can slightly wave their hands or twitch their eyes and bring one under a spell.

Magnum

Why are JWs so afraid of apostates? Their view of apostates seems to be out of the realm of the ordinary, the natural. It’s as if the words of apostates are supernatual or spiritistic – as if apostates are some kind of Jedi Knights who can slightly wave their hands or twitch their eyes and bring one under a spell. There really is some kind of spooky, demonic, supernatural connotation to the word among JWs. I guess the org has created that connotation purposefully.

In the last six months or so during a Watchtower Study in a local congregation, a clueless elder in a comment very forcefully said something like “So we shouldn’t even be curious. We don’t want to go their websites and even look at a few words. Just a few words is all it can take to completely ruin somebody spiritually.” I hear stuff like that from JWs often and I read stuff like that often in JW publications.

Does anybody remember the picture (artist illustration) in the Watchower in the late 80’s of the lady who received some kind of apostate material in the mail? If I remember correctly, she had that classic JW housewife look – like June Cleaver. She had the piece of mail extended at arm’s length and she was turning her head away from it and kind of holding her nose up in the air as if she were holding three-day-old road kill. She was holding the mail over the trash can about to drop it in. That might not be an accurate description, but that’s the picture I have in my mind. The point was that we should immediately trash any apostate material we might receive without examining it. (If anybody can find that picture, please post it.) When I was at the peak of my belief in JWdom, I did not understand the fear of apostates and I did not like the picture just mentioned.

I just don’t understand. What’s so powerful about the words of those who oppose certain or all parts of JWdom? How can JWs believe that just a few words is all it takes to destroy their faith. I never understood that. I always thought that those must be some powerful words if a few is all it takes. Hell, it takes at least six months of indoctrination with JW words to get a convert. How can apostates do it in a few lines? If JWs are who they say they are, why are they so worried about the words and writings of apostates? What do they fear? It seems that JW words should be able to overpower apostate words if JWs are what they claim to be.

2Co 10:4,5 [old NWT]:

4 For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. 5 For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God; and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ;

Shouldn’t the words of JWs and their super Jedi Knight GB be powerful and be able to overpower the words of apostates? See 1Ki 18:19-39. Elijah had no fear at all in testing out his god and way of worship, but the JWs won’t allow their way of worhsip to be tested. They don’t allow any negative talk against it. They can say all they want negative about you - little things and big things – but you can’t say anything negative about the org or its policies and teachings.

I think I know the answer to my question. I think the org higher-ups know there’s nothing supernatural about apostate words. They know that the words of many (most?) apostates are clear, simple, factual, logical, & revealing. However, the rank-and-file really seem to believe the rhetoric about apostates. They really seem to believe that apostates are like evil Jedi Knights. I don’t excuse the rank-and-file, though. If they are logical, thinking, reasoning people as they claim, then they should be wondering why it only takes a few apostate words to destroy years of JW words. They should think. They’re no better than those they condemn who blindly follow other religions/groups.