Damn, FedUpJW, that's interesting! You might have commented on that before, but I don't remember it; glad you posted it. Enlightening. I know some old-timers who died in the 90's. I'd love to see what they would think if they could come back now and see the religion they loved - what it is now. I'd also love to see what they'd think about the fact that in a little while it'll be 2021 with no "new world".
Posts by Magnum
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72How many TRUE BELIEVERS do you think are left in the Organization?
by pistolpete ini have a few jw relatives who are true believers.
by this i mean, they believe with all their heart that 1914 was the beginning of the last days, that this is the last generation, that we are in the very last of the last hour of this system of things, and that you should obey the governing body even if it does not make sense.
all of them are in their 60s and up into their 90s there is nothing you can say or show them to convince them or even cause a small doubt that the wt is not god organization.
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Opportunities you had to give up as Jw?
by Overrated ini could of gone to a two college program.
but gee-hovah didn't like it and my parents wanted me to sling watchtowers and awakes.
it's a good thing i'm in a profession that i can work and pay the bill's and finally left the "trooth "..
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Magnum
I had a good childhood - JW mother / non-JW father. I was allowed to associate with non-JWs, and I was very rarely dragged into the ministry because my mother rarely went in service. The worst part was the meetings. I grew up in a fabulous rural setting and would be out playing in the woods, fields, etc. with my friends and would hear that yell to come home because it was meeting time (three times per week). Then, when I was in high school, my mother became almost inactive. I went to almost no meetings, played football and basketball, and dated "wordly" girls.
So, I didn't lose that much of my youth; it was the prime of my life that was lost. Because of my JW indoctrination, I had no aspirations for the future; the indoctrination was always lurking in the back of my mind. When in high school, I made no plans. I was a deep thinker and questioner, so I really started to do study and analysis of JWdom when I graduated from high school. I wasn't fully convinced of the Bible's authenticity and that JWdom was right, but I leaned in that direction. I started working part time and going to college just to buy time because I wasn't ready to give in to JWdom; I just wasn't sure yet. I was not going to college to prepare for the future; I was just sort of in limbo. In college, I didn't follow any particular course of study for a major; I just took random courses, trying to sort things out.
I don't remember why, but I ended up taking calculus and physics (the calculus-based version, not the algebra-based version), and my already existing love of math and science were stimulated. I ended up transferring to a major university, well-known for science and engineering. There, I continued to take more advanced math, advanced physics, engineering, organic chemistry, etc., still not really following a course of study for a major even though I had to declare one. While still in college, I finally decided to become a JW and completely lost interest, not in math and science, but in schooling. This was at a time when the end was thought to be extremely imminent.
I left school, started pioneering, and after that, my life was a blur. The next thirty-five years were filled with exhaustion, misery, frustration, sacrifice, suffering, and deprivation. I made almost no money and was at times without medical and dental care and transportation. I never went hungry, but there were times when I saw people ordering nice big Chik-fil-A sandwiches and tall drinks, and I had to eat a prepackaged 69cent muffin and drink water from a fountain. I can't specify out here in public all my loving conditions, but I can tell you that they were harsh.
I now have no retirement and no prospects for such. I have friends who retired in their mid-50's. One retired at 54 as a federal probation officer. He gets really good money for life and great lifetime benefits. Even his social security benefit will be higher than mine because I made so little money.
It just sickens me. At over 60, I just started a new job today. It's depressing to just be starting a new job at 60+, knowing you can never retire, that you have nothing to look forward to.
So, the opportunities I gave up? Just having a normal life, having weekends to look forward to, having time after work each day to look forward to, having vacations, making money, having a retirement, etc. The only thing I didn't really lose was a mostly normal childhood.
P.S.
I was recently talking with a JW I've known for decades and with whom I can be open. I mentioned a non-JW we both know who worked a normal job, retired mid-50's, and is set for life. This JW, who is stubborn and doesn't catch on to things well, said "Yeah, but he didn't like his job."
I responded by explaining that I didn't like what what I did as a JW, either. I was fulltime in the ministry, I often had two of the five service committee positions (often the two hardest and most time-consuming), etc. I said that, yeah, this guy might not have liked his job, BUT, HE WAS GETTING PAID FOR IT, whereas, not only was I not getting paid, I was donating to my "employer" the whole time. He got afternoons off, nights off, weekends off, health benefits, paid vacations, and retirement. I got nothing; I actually got worse than nothing, since I paid JWdom to work for it.
The JW couldn't get the point, or at least wouldn't acknowledge it.
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72
How many TRUE BELIEVERS do you think are left in the Organization?
by pistolpete ini have a few jw relatives who are true believers.
by this i mean, they believe with all their heart that 1914 was the beginning of the last days, that this is the last generation, that we are in the very last of the last hour of this system of things, and that you should obey the governing body even if it does not make sense.
all of them are in their 60s and up into their 90s there is nothing you can say or show them to convince them or even cause a small doubt that the wt is not god organization.
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Magnum
Good question. I'd love to know the actual answer. It's going to be interesting to see what happens when the older group you mentioned dies off. They're the last ones from the old JWdom - when the material was deeper, the org was bolder and more scholarly, etc. They remember F Franz, the thicker prophecy books, the exciting conventions, the excitement of really believing the end was imminent, etc. JWdom is just so different now. I don't see how it could produce the kind of real true believers of decades past - those who lived and breathed for the religion and were willing to die for it.
I think a lot of those from the 60+ group, even though true believers, are confused because "this system" should have been long gone by now. Also, they've seen the org change so much in ways they don't necessarily like or understand. I'd love to know what they're really thinking.
I haven't really talked with any younger ones in the last decade or so, so I don't really know what the current mindset is. Would love to see more input on this topic. I hope I live long enough to see what happens. I'm really shocked that the org has survived this long. If you had asked me in 2014, I would have guessed that it might have crashed by now.
P.S. I think the org might want all of the older group to be gone because those older ones remember a lot of the failed predictions, embarrassing history, doctrinal shifts, etc.
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Mt 10:18 / JWdom
by Magnum inmt 10:18 (nwt):.
and you will be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations.. how has this worked out for jwdom?
i always got the impression that jws would be brought before governments and would give some kind of grand, impressive witness.
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Magnum
Mt 10:18 (NWT):
And you will be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a witness to them and the nations.
How has this worked out for JWdom? I always got the impression that JWs would be brought before governments and would give some kind of grand, impressive witness. Maybe JWs can relate some positive incidents, but the main thing that comes to my mind now is negative, that is, the org's being brought before government agencies because of the child molesting crisis. Think about the ARC. I don't see JWdom giving some kind of noble witness, but just trying to defend itself, and not looking very good in the process - definitely not giving some kind of witness that would attract people to it or even make people respect it.
It seems to me that JWdom doesn't even want to be haled before the average person on the street anymore. It doesn't want scrutiny. That's why it's changed so much in the last few decades - becoming less analytical. JWs used to relish challenges and questions, but now, they run from such and/or direct people to their website (the material on which is no longer deep and analytical).
So, I think Mt 10:18 ain't quite workin' out the way it was supposed to.
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Watchtower Convicts Itself - Quotes
by Sea Breeze inthis short video contains a few quotes from the wt that may help loved ones wake up a bit.
i thought it was pretty well done.
i wish the title wasn't so "in your face", but rather eased into it a bit more discreetly.
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Magnum
Wow! Thank you.
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-0:6 negative growth 2020 service year
by Fadeaway1962 inphttps://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=e&pub=syr20&srcid=share .
plus another increase in memorial partakes number etc .
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Magnum
Yes, the circumstances are unique, and I feel sure they will use that argument. However, it seems that they were headed to negative growth, anyway.
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Remind re: The "Cult" Label
by Simon inif you accuse people of being stuck in jw mindset or "cult-like" mentality simply because someone has a different view of politics than you, you'll be deleted.. it's insulting and a lazy substitute for having any real argument for a proper debate.. what next ... "you smell" ?.
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Magnum
Jehalapeno:
all the same things can be said about the anti-Trump crowd
Very good point. Reminds me of the arguments I used to have with my mother. She would inevitably resort to "You always think you're right!", which is simply an ad hominem attack; it is not a logical substantive argument that could/should aid one in winning an argument or debate. And, similar to what you said, I could say the same thing about her, and I did.
Here's almost word for word what would result after she said such:
Magnum: [said slowly and deliberately] OK, well, let me see. We're arguing now, and in this argument, do you think you're right?
Mama Magnum: [said reluctantly] Yes.
Magnum: And in the last argument we had, did you think you were right?
Mama Magnum: Yeah
Magnum: In fact, in every argument we've ever had, you thought you were right, or we wouldn't have been arguing. Isn't that right?
Mama Magnum: [reluctantly] Yeah.
Magnum: Well, then, why do you state that I always think I'm right as if there's something wrong with that when the exact same thing can justifiably be said about you?
When it's obvious that she sees the point, she changes the subject and yells: "Quit playing lawyer with me!"
I respond with "First, what does "playing lawyer" mean and second, why is it wrong? [pause] If you mean that I'm being logical and demanding evidence, then why should I quit doing that? Do you want me to stop because I'm being logical and showing how wrong you are? Do you want us to just have a free-for-all, unstructured yelling match which leads nowhere and is not constructive?"
It is hopeless to argue with her. She actually lacks the intellect, the comprehension, the knowledge, the composure, the honesty, etc. to be able to argue in a logical, honest manner. She would be thrown out of a courtroom by any qualified judge.
I've read or heard the words of many of those who resort to the "Trump followers = cult" argument, but, as you wrote, the words could simply be reversed on them.
I could refer to the "anti-Trump cult". They are blindly rabid in their hate for Trump and simply want him removed from office. Ask them what their platform is, what their agenda is, what they're going to do, how they're going to fix things or make them better, and you get a deer-in-headlights look.
I could refer to "the Obama cult". I saw people literally crying over him, almost slobbering over him, and they had no clue as to what he was going to do, but they loved them some Obama.
I actually don't think I could honestly refer to a "Biden Cult" because I think that Dems don't really like Biden; I think a lot of them actually hate him. Do you think AOC loves the old white man Biden? Do you think all the blacks and far lefties who voted Dem love Biden? I don't; I think they detest him. I think they were voting anti-Trump, anti-conservative, pro-Biden handlers, pro-Kamala. I think they just want their foot in the door, hoping ole white man Joe will kick the bucket or go 100% senile (instead of just the 97% he already is) and be removed so Kamala can step in. [Actually, I don't really think it's senility; I think he's just an airhead and always has been.]
Main point: Referring to conservatives as "the cult of Trump" or similar is simply an ad hominem attack and the argument could be reversed on them. However, arguments in which such tactics are used are for weak people - people who lack intellect and/or knowledge.
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Its not my fault
by incognito2014 inassume for a minute that god created everything.
there was nothing before him and everything is because of him.
every single thing in the universe he is directly responsible for.. somehow the good stuff we should thank him for but the bad stuff is nothing to do with him, it is our fault.. this world that he created that was “good” has turned in to a right shitshow but despite being absolutely responsible for it from start to finish it is not his fault and in fact he has somehow turned this round so that instead of being to blame he is the person who is going to sort the problems and we should be thankful..
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Magnum
Sea Breeze, I think the "problem of evil" is bigger than just the bad produced by the free will of humans. What about all the horror and suffering in the animal realm? I know there is a lot of it caused by humans, but I'm referring to that which has nothing to do with humans. What about all the horror and suffering that occurred in the animal realm before humans appeared on earth?
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My new definition of cult.
by Yomama inforcing someone to believe something that is untrure and shunning them if they do not believe it.
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Magnum
pistolpete:
Why I didn't follow their course? I think it may have to do with the fact that I grew up with the internet.
Yeah, I hear you and that certainly seems reasonable. I think that would have been a gamechanger for me. It wasn't until my early twenties (early 1980s) that I really started questioning/challenging JWdom (the organization as a whole) and JWism (the religion or the doctrinal part of JWdom). I had no internet and couldn't at the time even conceive of such. It's really amazing how much technology has changed since then. I only had a physical World Book Encyclopedia set at my house. I lived in a rural area, and the closest library was about 25 minutes away. I did go there a few times and look up stuff, but it was such a slow process. I had to look in a physical card catalog for various published info, go find the referenced item on shelves, and them thumb through pages to find the info. I was limited to copies of books and other publications at that particular library.
I don't remember when I really started using the internet... maybe late 90's? I remember hearing warnings about apostate info and other anti-JW info maybe even as early as mid-90's. At any rate, I was scared at first to look up JW-related stuff. I think it was around 2005 or maybe a little later that I began to gradually peek at anti-JW stuff, and gradually the scales came off my eyes.
I believe that if I had had the internet when I was first challenging and before I got baptized, I would have felt that it was OK to explore what others had to say because I wasn't yet committed. And... with all the information that the internet would have made available to me, I would never have gotten baptized and would have been spared a life of misery.
JWdom loves the darkness just as criminals do. They love it because they can do things under cover and not be exposed. JWdom loved the dark days before the light of the internet. The internet brought a great light that shone brightly on JWdom and pointed out its wrongs, its deception, its weakness, its lunacy, its hypocrisy, etc. If JWdom were the truth-loving, superhuman-backed entity it claims to be, it would love the light and exposure.
I'm glad you had the internet and didn't lose your life. If only I had been born two decades later.....
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My new definition of cult.
by Yomama inforcing someone to believe something that is untrure and shunning them if they do not believe it.
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Magnum
Drearyweather, I really appreciate your kind, humble words. Damn, I feel bad now for making you feel bad. Sorry. No problems at all. Wish you the best, too. I'm just really mad at JWdom, and sometimes I might get too forceful with my words. I'm really not a hard person. I'm reasonable and caring. It might seem otherwise at times; I realize that.
Again, thanks for your last post.