when jehovah's witnesses began distributing door to door the new world translation beginning in the early 1950's a firestorm of protest broke out in mainstream churches.
the alarm cry was "they've changed the bible to fit their own crooked teachings!".
you can imagine the discord as church members tried to figure out how jehovah's witnesses could prove by reading from the nwt the king james version was full of omissions and errors and outright fraud concerning, for instance, the trinity doctrine or the name of god!!.
As Always Nice article Terry.
Might you have a source or more information for this quote, " There are more points of disagreement between manuscripts than there are words in the Gospels!"
This is a really valuable stat and I'd like to see more solid info about it.
Thanks!
isn't that just annoying?
can people even comment in their own words anymore?
how bad is it where you're at?
If I could comment in MY OWN words, without being put on the Black List of commenters, I would go back to meetings, and comment about 7 times per meeting.
is not talking about the planet or why we are alive, but why are you reading this?
why have you sought out this place?
only you know those answers, and i definitely don?t know anything about anyone, but here is the answer for me.
1. Please tell me what type of Drugs you're on, so that I can try them.
2. WE Are here, because we love community,and fellowship & Gossip, and Laughter, and Controversy & People.
the ancient hebrews, and their yahweh included i suppose (can i say that here?
or do you'll prefer jehovah?
), didn't even know of the earth.
Srd - Nice article.
I don't have a lot of time to study it closely right now, but I believe that you're correct on several things.
How do you view the 2 Creation Narratives? Gen 1 & starting at Gen 2:4
Also have you read the Books of Adam & Eve? You will gain some really cool insights after reading these books..
Essentially what I have come to understand is this :
The Garden of Eden is what People now refer to as "Heaven", this is a proper description since it is possible that The Garden of Eden actually rested on top of the Firmament, (The Thick ice Barrier that was Destroyed for the Flood) - This is why when Adam & Eve were driven to the earth, it was such a Punishment.. The Garden of Eden is a place of Heaven & Earth combined, where as the Earth is primarily for the Animals.
there are verses that point to this all though out the bible if you look for them.
feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.
i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.
i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.
Regarding Exodus 20:5,Deuteronomy 24:6,Isaiah 14:21 the question was "Does god punish children for their fathers sins? or doesn't he?
Exodus 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.
Another Version - "You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me," - ESV
The 10 Commandments were given to the Israelites, God's chosen people, and these Laws were pertaining to their Inheritance of the Promised Land.
By God saying that the Iniquity would Visit/Punish the Children of the Sinners, he was not implying that he would Kill the Children or Directly inflict punishment on them. Rather he was stating the fact that, children inherit the Results of the sins that Parents Commit.
An Example :
- If a Father squanders an inheritance, that could have sustained his Family for many future Generations.. The Children are burdened by his actions.
In this Scenario, the Fathers would be Kicked out of the Promised Land, and for this reason they were Punished, and indirectly their children suffer because of it..
This is no Different then Adam transgressing, and his Children inheriting his Fallen Flesh.
A descriptive scripture is Leviticus 26:39 "And those of you who are left shall rot away in your enemies’ lands because of their iniquity, and also because of the iniquities of their fathers they shall rot away like them." - This shows that Children are Punished for their own iniquity, but also they naturally are punished because of their Parents iniquities.
God's love and patience is seen in the fact, that he did not Expel the Israelites immediately from the Promised Land, because of their Idolatry.
The Phrase "to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me," shows that the Burden actually fell on the 3rd or 4th Generations, after the Idolatary began.. In the light of that context, we see that Israel practiced idolatry but God did not throw them out of the land for some generations later. I would not take the 'three generations' as being too strict for God might show mercy and extend the time of his judgments until later. This does not mean that the first generation that practiced idolatry would be without any punishment at all, it just means that as a nation, under national sins, God would not punish them immediately. Second, it does not mean that God would punish the innocent, for if a generation would stop the practice, God would restore them and forgive them. The phrase implies 'persistence in sin' for 'generations'.
Deuteronomy 24:16 is not a contradiction, it is a reinforcement of what we see in Exodus 20:5
“Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin."
While Children may very well turn to Sin because of the Examples that their Parents set, Yahweh does not Punish, or Kill a child based on the actions of his parents.
Proof of this can be seen in Ahaz the Father of Hezekiah - Hezekiah was a great and godly man (2 Kings 18), his father was a Wicked Man he even Sacrificed his sons in the Fire (2 Kings 16:3)
Isaiah 14:21 is Referring to a Different Time Period.. This can be seen in the Preceeding Verses, the key verses are these :
V4 "“How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury b ceased!" (The Opressor has not ceased now)
V5 "5The LORD has broken the staff of the wicked,the scepter of rulers 6that struck the peoples in wrath" (the scepter of rulers has not been broken)
V7 "7The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing."(the earth is not quiet and peaceful)
V9 "9Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come;
This book is referring to Satan, His empire and a future Time after the Millenium.
The Children, are not Innocent or underserving of Annihilation, these Children are mentioned here : Matthew 23:33 "Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?"
These Offspring are wicked Matthew 12:34 "You brood of vipers! How can you speak good, when you are evil? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
They are not being Destroyed because of the sins of their father.. They are being destroyed, because they are off spring of Satan, and they choose him as their father instead if Yahweh.
feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.
i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.
i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.
Cofty - thanks for taking the time to write out these 3 disturbing scenarios.. You pose a very valid question.. "Faithfully carry out God’s command through Moses, or refuse to follow orders?" since leaving the WT 1 year ago, I have not spent enough time in the OT, and honestly I have not given any attention to these stories.
I'll read all of the quoted scriptures, and I'll give thought to the implications and possible justifications for what Transpired..
It is an interesting contrast that exists between the war and murder in the OT & the love in the NT. I do not understand it by any means.
I have a Grasp on the overall plan of God, but I do not have a Grasp on these types of situstions. - Thnks again for taking the time to lay them out.
I do have a question out of curiosity though.. You said " This is why I am not only an atheist but an anti-theist. My contempt for your christian morality is total."
If you are an Atheist, does that mean that you do not Believe that God Exists?
if you believe that God doesn't exist, wouldn't that also mean that these stories in the OT are just fabricated stories?
Do you believe that these stories are True, and for that Reason you hate God, and reject him as your God,
Or do you believe that these stories are so terrible, it is impossible for a God to have done them.. There fore, no God Exists?
feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.
i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.
i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.
Cofty - I understand your disgust and hatred, towards such sickness. I don't mind if your harsh words are directed towards me.. I too am seeking to understand this more fully.
if you'd like, feel free to PM me, and we can continue the conversation.
feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.
i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.
i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.
Understood and thanks for clarifying your views. I'm working on the contradictions, and I'll send at least one response this evening.
By the way.. One issue with the WT is that they require conformity in all Beliefs, this is very problematic to people's faith and overall understanding. I personally make sure to be very thorough with all research that I do for my faith, But I'm not never "stuck" to one Belief or Understanding.
When I research a topic, I try and prove my existing Understanding wrong first, and then if I cannot , I view it through the Bias of my current understanding.. as we have all seen, it is far too easy to believe something that fits your current comfort level and beliefs.. However only with a flexible attitude, can someone increase their faith and grow in Understanding.
The reason that I say this, is to let you know that it's not my goal to "prove" you wrong, rather it's my goal for both of us to arrive at the Correct Understanding, (As much as is possible)
Thanks Again : )
feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.
i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.
i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.
- "I agree with Cofty. Objectivetruth, why bring them into existence in the first place being Omnicient and knowing ahead what they were being born into, that he would have to perform a mercy killing to take them out of something he brought them into in the first place?"
The issue is Many Ex-JW's maintain the Watchtower Teaching, that says once God Kills someone they are Dead Forever.
The True God resurrects all Humans, and gives them 1,000 years of life on an Earth that is ery different than the Earth that we now live on.
When God has killed people in the past, he is doing nothing more then taking years away from the Life that they have In this time period.
If everyone that Suffered now, knew %100 that they would be resurrected to a Paradise Earth, they would desire death and an end to their current suffering much more.
feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.
i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.
i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.
Cofty - Which would you rather?
1. Have your body subjected to all forms of Disgusting / Pagan pearling, cutting and Tearing.. To ultimately be Burned Alive, as a sacrifice to Satan. (All at the hands of your Parents)
2. Pass away in your sleep, withotub any Pain, Anguish or Suffering?
Was it Disgusting for God to Take Enoch's life when he was a mere 365 Years? (The Equivalent of 30 Years old now)
