Posts by objectivetruth

6

The Mahabharata (Ancient Hindu Scripture) and The Book of Enoch

by objectivetruth in

it's really fascinating to discover the similarities in ancient texts, in another thread howthebiblewascreated pointed out similarities in the epic of gilgamesh and genesis 8... as a naive jw, i feared, and viewed hinduism as a polytheistic religion that essentially worshipped demons.. to my relative surprise, hinduism actually started off as a form monotheism, viewing brahman as the creater and god of the universe.

as judaism transitioned from a strict monotheistic religion to what is now called christianity, simply claiming that god manifests himself as multiple gods, hinduism now does the same.

in any case i'm very naive as to the beliefs of hinduism, so i won't discuss that any more.. comparing two ancient texts : the book of enoch & mahabharata a crazy narrative is found... 87.2 and i raised my eyes again to heaven, and saw in the vision, and behold, there came from heaven beings that were like white men.

objectivetruth

Interesting crazy, I'll look at Krishna.

Thanks

77

Debunking the Bible

by Coded Logic in

there seems to be an endless number of ways to show the bible is not devinely inspired but all of it seems so complicated.

anyone know any simple arguements for this?

.

objectivetruth

Yadda yadda -

Hume's and your method of reasoning are appropriate, in some scenarios however they are limited. They are limited by Humanities current understanding of the Laws of Nature. Another example that Campbell gave was relating to Children..

He reasoned that Children accept a matter as Truth, when Trusted Family or Friends tell them about it.. There is no way for these children to understand the Natural Laws governing these Truths, but nonetheless they accept them. Then once they are mature enough to understand the Natural Laws that governed things they accepted on Faith, they trust the source even more.

Likely Campbell got this example from Jesus at Matthew 18:3,4 "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4. Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Fair enough on your response to Every Day miracles, I agree they are not the same.

I do not Believe in Aliens but I do Beleive in UFO's.. If an object is Unidentified and it is Flying.. It certainly is a UFO, this is a perfect example..

There have been UFO sitings over China (Edited) , 100's of people were eye witnesses.. An airport was shut down for an hour or more because of the Unidentified Object.. In my perspective and Campbell's this is Undeniable Proof that there indeed was a UFO flying over an airport.

http://youtu.be/vtlHQLzGlyc

Like a child I accept some thing like this as a fact, however I do not know what the Object was, and I do not know who Piloted it, or even if it was Piloted.. I just don't know.

Your right about the Untrustworthy nature of certain Scriptures, and personaly I do not accept all of the Miracles in the bible as they have been transmitted, and as they are commonly understood.. Does this mean that I reject all possibilities of Miracles or all Biblical miracles? Definetely not.

Lets consider one "Miracle" that is in my view more challenging to grasp from a Natural Laws standpoint than Resurrection.

This Miracle is For-Knowledge / Prophecy.. Matthew 24:2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down." - Jesus predicts the Destruction of the Temple.. You and I both know this prophecy doesn't hold weight in the mind of a Critic, seeing that a critic can simply state that Matthew was written post fulfillment.

But Jesus did not personaly Prophecy this, he was referencing Daniel 9:26 " an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary." - Daniel was written well before the Destruction of Jerusalem, and the cutting off of Jesus.

What is your explanation to show that this was not a Miracle?

23

Torah keepers,

by Mikado in

has anyone ever met any members of this group?.

i met a lovely lady who was telling me all about it.. apparently everything in the bible is literal, and it rather disconcerted me just how much i rememberd if it all.. everytime i asked do you mean that everything is literally true, apparently it is so..... she is a genuineky sincere, well meaning lady, and had a lovely time telling me all about it!.

objectivetruth

Was it him that made the Defenses or was it his Disciples, and the writers of the NT afterwards... If you examine Jesus life course, he didn't really teach a lot of Religous Doctrine as we understand it. His teachings focused on Loving your neighbors, Loving The Father and Morality.. Sure he spoke symbolicaly at times, regarding end times prophecies..

He said very little about his identity, what he did say was “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” (John 6:29) - To believe in Hebrew is Concrete and requires Action.. The believe that Jesus spoke of is Accomplished by Following his Example.. It is MUCH MORE than a simple acknowledgment that he was the son of god.

He explains this concept well at Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

23

Torah keepers,

by Mikado in

has anyone ever met any members of this group?.

i met a lovely lady who was telling me all about it.. apparently everything in the bible is literal, and it rather disconcerted me just how much i rememberd if it all.. everytime i asked do you mean that everything is literally true, apparently it is so..... she is a genuineky sincere, well meaning lady, and had a lovely time telling me all about it!.

objectivetruth

Yes Jesus of the Gospels certainly betrayed the Jewish people. He said something horrrible and totally Un-Messianic to the Jewish people- "you see the Temple, not a stone will be left upon another" Mark 13:2.

- This was a prophecy, not a threat.

History is the greatest condemner of Jesus as the Messiah. Since the Jewish Messiah was to bring world peace it is obvious that 2000 years of violent history perpetrated by Jesus Christians on each other and on their fellow humans shows that this Jesus is a fraud and certainly no God. Never once in 2000 has this Jesus lifted a finger to stop Christian violence.

- 2 Samuel 14:14 " Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But that is not what God desires; rather, he devises ways so that a banished person does not remain banished from him."

God devised a way for Jesus to bring Peace to every Righteous Jew and Non-Jew Starting With Adam. After he suffered in the flesh, he released all the righteous captives from Sheol.

23

Torah keepers,

by Mikado in

has anyone ever met any members of this group?.

i met a lovely lady who was telling me all about it.. apparently everything in the bible is literal, and it rather disconcerted me just how much i rememberd if it all.. everytime i asked do you mean that everything is literally true, apparently it is so..... she is a genuineky sincere, well meaning lady, and had a lovely time telling me all about it!.

objectivetruth

Objective -

Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah for some very basic reasons-

The Jewish Messiah is to be an ordinary human descended from the line of King David, as opposed to someone claiming to be God in the flesh.

-Jesus Never claimed to be God in the Flesh.

-Jesus was an ordinary Man.. It was this very reason that they Rejected him.. Jesus’ earthly ministry disappointed many people. He came to set the captives free, and yet John the Baptist was not just imprisoned, he was beheaded. (Matthew 14:10). The Pharisees expected the Messiah to honor them and to fulfill the Law as they saw it. But Jesus condemned their hypocrisy, their greed, and their misinterpretation of the Law.

The people escorted Jesus into Jerusalem with the "Red Carpet" rolled out..they expected Him to save them from their oppressors and reign as David’s heir. They did not realize that he came as the Servant of the Lord to die for the sins of His people. He rode a donkey, a sign that He came in peace, rather than a war-horse, which a conqueror would have ridden.

Jesus’ disciples were disappointed when He did not show any political ambition. Although He told them several times that He was going to Jerusalem to die, the disciples didn’t understand what He meant. Even up until the night before His death, the disciples sought places of honor next to him, confident that He was about to become king.

The Jewish Messiah was/is to bring peace to the world (first time out) this man did not.

- Jesus did not bring the type of Peace they wrongly expected, but he did bring peace John 14:27 " Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid."

This Messiah is to support the Jewish people and bring them home to Israel and oversee the rebuilding of the Temple, Jesus did none of these.

- I don't have the answer off hand on this one, what scripture are you referencing?

Regarding Jesus Death, I won't discuss this topic in Public.. PM ifyou'd like to discuss.

23

Torah keepers,

by Mikado in

has anyone ever met any members of this group?.

i met a lovely lady who was telling me all about it.. apparently everything in the bible is literal, and it rather disconcerted me just how much i rememberd if it all.. everytime i asked do you mean that everything is literally true, apparently it is so..... she is a genuineky sincere, well meaning lady, and had a lovely time telling me all about it!.

objectivetruth

Designs - Peter said of Paul " as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." 2 Peter 3:16

Christ followers followed the Correct Law their entire lives, this is seen all through out Acts, example Acts 21:20 "And when they heard it, they glorified God. And they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed. They are all zealous for the law,"

Jesus did not Betray the Torah or the Jewish People, The Jewish People (Israelites) betrayed the father who gave them the Torah in the first place. There were 3 Sects of Judais, Jesus was a member of the Essenes, this Sect was righteous,holy and they Followed The true Torah.

Fernando - It's important to distinguish between Traditions of Men and Gods Laws.. Read Psalm 119, and you will gain an accurate understanding of the True Law of God, and the benefits it brings to those that follow it.. David Said of the Law " 97 Oh how I love your law! It is my meditation all the day ."

Mikado - The Bible makes perfect sense, only when you stop looking to it as a history book, and judging it thus.. and you start looking to it as a guide to Righteous Life and The Start of Truth.

Jesus did not say, "Understand The Bible, for the Kingdom of Heaven has drawn near" .. He said "Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven has drawn near" - This Bible is a guide to help you understand how to repent.

23

Torah keepers,

by Mikado in

has anyone ever met any members of this group?.

i met a lovely lady who was telling me all about it.. apparently everything in the bible is literal, and it rather disconcerted me just how much i rememberd if it all.. everytime i asked do you mean that everything is literally true, apparently it is so..... she is a genuineky sincere, well meaning lady, and had a lovely time telling me all about it!.

objectivetruth

I believe in Following The Torah, and the Laws found within it.

Usually when I tell someone this, they respond.. "So do you sacrifice animals" , "do you believe in slave ownership",etc..

Many Christians miss a very important statement of Christ found at Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

The key word in this verse is "Fulfill" .. The translation of "to fulfill" is lekayem in Hebrew (le-KAI-yem), which means to uphold or establish, as well as to fulfill, complete or accomplish. The phrase "fulfill the Law" is often used as an idiom to mean to properly interpret the Torah so that people can obey it as God really intends.

In Matthew 5 Jesus proceeds to "fulfill" The Law (Properly Intrepret it)

At 5:38 we see “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth." 39. But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."

Jesus Life & Ministry provided for us "The Way" or a perfect example to help us understand how to follow The Law.

The Law and The Prophets (The Old Testament) had many traditions of men, and fabrications added to it.. Things such as Stoning Homo Sexuals,Animal Sacrifice,Slavery?. Were not Commandments of God, they were commandments of Men.

We know this by Jesus words at John 12:49 " For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak." - The Father sent his Son to earth, to show people how to lI've Righteously as God intended.

77

Debunking the Bible

by Coded Logic in

there seems to be an endless number of ways to show the bible is not devinely inspired but all of it seems so complicated.

anyone know any simple arguements for this?

.

objectivetruth

yadda yadda - If I understand your reply properly.. You are stating that since certain miracles have not been witnessed for 2,000 years or more, Miracles do not exist?

You say to look with my own eyes and find miracles.. Fair Enough.

Here are a few things that my eyes see..

Child Birth, A Limitless Universe, The earths natural & consistent regeneration of fresh, A human teaching an ape over 1,500 words in sign language, You and Me having this conversation as caring & thinking humans..

Oh yeah and I can't "see them" but I'll add my eyes to this list of Miracles. Can you honestly argue that Life it Self is less Miraculous than Resurrection of Life?

As for Hume he was an advocate of inductive reasoning, he was an empiricist, this ultimately led to absurd arguments like this :

"Though the Being, to whom the miracle is ascribed, be in their case, Almighty, it [i.e., the miracle] does not, upon that account, become a whit more probable; since it is impossible for us to know the attributes or actions of such a Being, otherwise than from the experience of his productions, in the usual course of nature. This still reduces us to repeat observations, and obliges us to compare the instances of the violations of truth in the testimony of men with those of the viola- tion of the laws of nature by miracles, in order to judge which of them is most likely and probable."

Essentially Hume is saying' If our current understanding of the Laws of Nature do not correspond with a proposed Miracle, it is impossible that a Miracle took place.

I will admit that I cannot explain Resurrection and the actual Mechanisms that are employed to bring it about. However I take the side of a man named George Campbell when considering miracles..

Campbell argued that the most important factor in determining the authenticity of testimony of a Miracle is the number of witnesses. Numerous witnesses and no evidence of collusion will supersede all other factors, Large Scale testimony is capable of providing absolute certainty even with the most miraculous event.

A friend of Humme asked him, what he thought of the Scotish Theologian Campbell's Essay which responded to Hume's essay on Miracles.

Hume's Response : "The Scotch Theologue has beaten me"

6

The Mahabharata (Ancient Hindu Scripture) and The Book of Enoch

by objectivetruth in

it's really fascinating to discover the similarities in ancient texts, in another thread howthebiblewascreated pointed out similarities in the epic of gilgamesh and genesis 8... as a naive jw, i feared, and viewed hinduism as a polytheistic religion that essentially worshipped demons.. to my relative surprise, hinduism actually started off as a form monotheism, viewing brahman as the creater and god of the universe.

as judaism transitioned from a strict monotheistic religion to what is now called christianity, simply claiming that god manifests himself as multiple gods, hinduism now does the same.

in any case i'm very naive as to the beliefs of hinduism, so i won't discuss that any more.. comparing two ancient texts : the book of enoch & mahabharata a crazy narrative is found... 87.2 and i raised my eyes again to heaven, and saw in the vision, and behold, there came from heaven beings that were like white men.

objectivetruth

LOL good point apohnophos Who Knows......

77

Debunking the Bible

by Coded Logic in

there seems to be an endless number of ways to show the bible is not devinely inspired but all of it seems so complicated.

anyone know any simple arguements for this?

.

objectivetruth

Paris - Great Points! What you said is True beyond what any one else said.

Doctrine / Beliefs / Opinions are only beneficial if they Further Tolerance, Compassion and Love.. If they do the opposite, they are simply useless Knowledge. All of the worlds Religions have a core teaching of Love & Helping the Poor..

It should be our Primary Goak to Nelp the poor that come to this site beaten down, confused, lonely desperate and lost..

thanks for the comment.