the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?
it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?
' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.
Jeffro:
So it is not that simple, you need to explain the variant rate of change, relative to extinction. Your model doesn't work for this.
"Conversely, arguing that it was intentionally designed by a ‘creator’ is all kinds of messed up." Statements like this are sophomoric, that is why you can not have good discussion on this site.
the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?
it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?
' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.
“The Cat, the Rat and the Parasite”. I found this fascinating as I am unable to generate a suitable argument for how this would have “evolved” in the absence of a Creator or how this parasitic behavior could be developed without an intentional design. The parasite in this instance would need to have prior knowledge of two species and their inherent behavior with each other for a reproducible, sustainable, life cycle. The parasite actually modifies the rats behavior or fear mechanisms, totally cool, but not an iterative process.
What say you, am I missing something in my parasite argument?
Some reading on the parasite if you like to nerd out.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1690701/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1286457901014599
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2013.13777
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-parasite-that-makes-a-rat-love-a-cat-86515093/
the jw website is currently featuring a piece: the shell of the diabolical ironclad beetle—was it designed?
it is part of their regular tedious 'was it designed?
' series that purports that very very specific animal species must have been specifically designed because of some seemingly amazing feature.. but they seem completely unaware that this directly contradicts their notion that only very broad 'kinds' were required on the mythical 'ark'.
I agree that the ark and deluge allegory have implications with the Intelligent Designer argument. However, this argument is flawed and is not a dependency, it’s information is not fact based, but rather a belief that a global flood occurred like the bible indicates.
We can look at what the science and research has around this, based on ice core data and sites in Turkey such as Göbekli Tepe (GT).
Ice core data suggest that there was a cataclysmic event that took place 11,000 - 12,800 years ago aligning with the Younger Dryas. However, it was very devastating, but not global. Most scholars agree, this was the event that the cultural flood myths originated from. Dating at GT far surpassed biblical chronology and there are too many other ancient sites around the globe that put sophisticated colonizing humans on this planet past 7K years by a long reach.
Ok, now that the “flood myth” is out of way, the Intelligent Designer argument can have a better foundation to proceed…
for decades, critics have pointed out the unfairness of god slaughtering billions in a future armageddon who never even met a jw much less heard their life-saving message.
(remember the contortions around the collective responsibility of nations?
) also, why do babies and children have to die simply because their parents rejected the witnesses?
One should consider that the reference material (i.e., bible) that is being sited may not be an accurate or full account. Therefore, the possibility exists for another outcome. If we argue that we are created by an intelligent designer, and we are a subset of the creator or created in the image of the gods, then our patterns of logic should be congruent with our creator. As Hermes stated,” as above so below” or the apple does not fall far from the tree then we would not be so different from our creator as our children are to us.
My point is, we are struggling to twist out a logical outcome that does fit well into the Old Testament portrayal of the Hebrew god Yahweh. Perhaps the data we are consuming is not accurate?
What if there is another story, what if we do not know everything?
from jw org; 2023 - a year of anxiety:.
“since the beginning of 2023, there have now been 13 earthquakes above magnitude 7 worldwide, one of the highest values since records began.”.
www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk cites 3 reasons it may seem that earthquakes are increasing in intensity and number.. 1. more population growth = more people affected.. 2. clustered statistics.
I think they are overreaching, but here is a good resource to run your own analysis.
Lists, Maps, and Statistics | U.S. Geological Survey (usgs.gov)
Search Earthquake Catalog (usgs.gov)
Good summary below
if the current doctrine is that only baptised witnesses are going to survive and everyone else burns them what about this new update new light that some from before the flood and sodomites will be resurrected?.
but didn’t he mention at the agm something about there is no point jehovah killing them and then resurrecting them again?
it seems they are confused about what they teach and that’s why brother jackson joked about “is this what we used to believe or what we believe now?”.
Here is one of my challenges with the org’s salvation interpretation. If an individual dies before the judgement cut without an understanding of Gods life T&Cs (i.e., ignorance) they get a resurrection (i.e., do-over). Notwithstanding, they come back into the world during the 1K year time, which clearly removes any ambiguity about who or if there is a God, our origins, purpose, and all these things we are guessing at or supposed to have faith in. I do not know about you, but what % of folks do you think will reject God after a resurrection in the new world? Not many, I am thinking. But for the ones that are lucky enough to be living in this hell hole currently without any visible proof of the aforementioned, and sickness, death and all that goes along with life in this $hit hole, we won’t make the cut because we are not part of an elite religious club claiming to represent God on earth. Right....that makes complete logical sense and represents a fair judgement for all humans. Really? Sorry, I cannot reason this is fair and balanced.
I find it repugnant and arrogant that any religious leaders take part in speculation about who or who will not be forgiven by our savior. I personally know many non-JWs that are kind, loving, and just good souls, better people than some of the witnesses that I have known in the truth. I cannot imagine they would be sidelined because they are not baptized JWs.
I am not a fan of eschatological theology as it sets a premise of fear motivation. Most individuals have misplaced the love for the Creator in exchange for a given behavior for either receiving of gifts (life) or out of fear (death). Anyone with children knows we want our children to love us, not because of what we can give them or what we can take away.
according to the bible, there was dissention in heaven or god’s kingdom.
in god’s own courtyard, the factors existed for such, that perfect creations morphed into gods’ opposition, even in the presence of the universal creator.
accordingly, they are still at it, hell bent on destroying all.. here is my question; how is it that the creation thinks they can win a war with the universal creator?
According to the bible, there was dissention in heaven or god’s kingdom. In god’s own courtyard, the factors existed for such, that perfect creations morphed into gods’ opposition, even in the presence of the Universal Creator. Accordingly, they are still at it, hell bent on destroying all.
Here is my question; how is it that the creation thinks they can win a war with the Universal Creator? You do not break bad like that unless you know you can win. I just cannot conceive that an intelligent creation is going on a suicide mission to prove a point just to piss-off daddy.
One possible explanation is that the illuminated serpent is not the bad guy in the story.
Another possible explanation is that we do not know the complete divine hierarchy, and we have only been exposed to a few levels down. I personally favor this as the Hebrew god Yahweh, at times displays petty, jealous, behavior, or basically not the caliber of personality and being that put all these universal pieces together.
Given the criterion that this story is rooted in reality and truth, what say you? Is there more to this universal play than we know?
will the great tribulation hurt individuals more than what job, jesus, roman punishment, naz&i germany, hiroshima, jail, capital punishment, disease, pain, terror, horror, soldier in the battlefield or some terrible pain people experience this very moment?
how worse can pain and suffering get.
it is very common.
If you look back through history, there were many events that would certainly qualify as to what that tribulation would look like.
For example, 5 million people die of smallpox in the Roman Empire, 25 million dead of bubonic plague in the Roman/Byzantine Empire. 100 million dead across Europe and Asia between 1338 to 1351 from the Black Death or bubonic plague and another 1.5 billion in the Americas dead from the combined diseases of smallpox, measles, and typhoid all before the 1900’s. Two years from 1918 to 1920 brought the Spanish flu pandemic, with mortality of 75 million across the globe. That is just a small example, there is much much more.
Just in our times, if you have ever seen any footage of a depression era dust bowl storm rolling in complete with lighting, one would imagine that was it. Or imagine you are in Japan during the time we dropped the nuclear bombs, vaporizing thousands, and leaving more with severe burns and radiation poisoning. Sipping on our espressos at Starbucks, playing house, most Americans do not have a clue. We have been desensitized to death, we are immune and unsympathetic. As I wrote in my prior post, I am not a fan of eschatological writings.
My point is this.
Look at the personality of God and ask yourself do you really believe
what was written down is locked in solid truth?
Or maybe, we just do not know shite like we think we do.
will the great tribulation hurt individuals more than what job, jesus, roman punishment, naz&i germany, hiroshima, jail, capital punishment, disease, pain, terror, horror, soldier in the battlefield or some terrible pain people experience this very moment?
how worse can pain and suffering get.
it is very common.
I ask why.
Why have humans been relegated to the predestined words on a page? No hope, no way to change the trajectory? So, in my simple world that is predestination, yes? If we have the outcome beforehand, that is predestination. But, it also defines our mindset. I like to use the parental child relationship for my bases; as above so below. We know that if we as parents program our children negatively or continue to remind them they will not be successful, most will not be able to overcome that and will fail. We have been told that we are sinners, and unworthy of a direct relationship with god, we have been told that man cannot rule man, for example. I am not debating these but pointing out the negative programming. We were told that since our forefathers screwed the pooch, we are dead on arrival. Then things change up some in the New Testament with the messiah’s message. Perhaps if we hold our breath, stand on one leg and shoutout the gospels loud enough, there is a tiny tiny tiny chance we may have a shot at salvation. Really?
Does this sound like the thoughts of the universal creator, or something other? The primary drivers here are fear and reward based. You get something good if you tow the line, or you get death (or something other) if not. So, at the end of the day we have been taught to love god for what he is giving us, or what (he) is taking away. I do not know about you, but I did not bring up my child in that way. I want his love, because he truly loves us, not because of what we can give him or take away. Fear and reward systems are short lived. Notwithstanding, if you are king and use those motivating/control mechanisms you will never know who your true and loyal subjects are.
But I digress, back to the point of the tribulation. If we know the end, why are were living in this hell to begin with? Seems pointless. Enough suffering already, time to course correct.
i know this has been discussed many times, but i was watching a news story about female genital mutilation (not female circumcision) and segued mentally into why the hassle about male babies having to be circumcised, christians especially.
even the wts flipflops on this...... if adam, the first perfect man, not under the jewish law code, was given a foreskin by god as an aspect of his physical perfection, why then do so many "christian" people have their boy babies circumcised?.
if a health issue....why did god create the perfect man, adam, with a foreskin?.
Great Question!
According to The effect of male circumcision on sexuality “Masturbatory difficulty increased after circumcision in 63%.” There you have your answer, uncircumcised males would spend all their time sanding wood (i.e., self-pleasure), resulting in lower birth rates, or it put the survival of the tribe at risk. Of course, I’m kidding; however, it does beg the obvious question concerning the physiological effects.
I have read, although difficult to measure, the assertion that over 20,000 specialized erotogenic nerve endings are packed into the foreskin. Surveys on the same seem quite subjective, and debated. Although the following links do provide a good amount of supportive references for the coloration of nerve density and erogenous zones. http://www.noharmm.org/advantage.htm, and http://www.cirp.org/library/anatomy/winkelmann/
Concerning the argument in favor of circumcision most site immunological benefits. There again, there is evidence to support just the opposite that the “protective effect of the natural anatomy.” provides mechanisms against infection. Therefore, this contradicts the hygiene argument, and presupposition that the people of that time were too ignorant to keep their junk clean and free of sand. http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/
As a differential mark, I agree with the comments, I’m not sure where this would practically be demonstrated.
What I struggle with is the theocratic justifications. I believe one can make a strong argument given the current understanding of medicine, and science, concluding that keeping the foreskin intact has merit in uncompromised anatomy’s, albeit the procedure is still contested. Personally, I feel shortchanged (not shorted mind you) knowing several inches of highly sensitive skin was removed without my consent. But why was god so concerned with nudity, sex, and the penis in the first place? Why not pick another body part or feature to change for the purposes of sealing the deal, and marking his people? I’m thinking back hair would have been a much better selection if we had to remove anything. Or for that matter, why not add instead of subtracting, who would turn down adding a few more inches to ones penis 😊
