Posts by Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Hi, Frank75! In this thread, thirdwitness has already directly disagreed in public with at least two doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses.

I have noticed that is not the only thing. His (their) merely being here and engaging in this forum topic with known apostates (JW standard) is reason for being df’d himself. Incentive indeed for the JW to keep his identity hidden, but would actually be the best thing for him (them) if they came out in the open.

Let the cards fall where they may! They are persons of faith are they not?

It continues to say…..

They need to join this forum to post, which includes person of many persuasions religiously and otherwise (very otherwise in some cases). Arguably thirdwitness has indeed taken up association with all who are here , like it or not. When he gets up on his soapbox it is no different than if he was visiting a local church to defend his beliefs from their pulpit. Either way he should be DF’d as a result the JW definition under apostasy in the KS book.

Then there is this hogwash

*** w86 4/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
Approved association with Jehovah’s Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah’s Witnesses. What do such beliefs include?
That the great issue before humankind is the rightfulness of Jehovah’s sovereignty, which is why he has allowed wickedness so long. (Ezekiel 25:17) That Jesus Christ had a prehuman existence and is subordinate to his heavenly Father. (John 14:28) That there is a “faithful and discreet slave” upon earth today ‘entrusted with all of Jesus’ earthly interests,’ which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) That 1914 marked the end of the Gentile Times and the establishment of the . (Luke 21:7-24; Revelation 11:15–12:10) That only 144,000 Christians will receive the heavenly reward. (Revelation 14:1, 3) That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christ’s Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present “great crowd” of Jesus’ “other sheep.”—John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4. Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do! Paul wrote about some in his day: “Their word will spread like gangrene. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of that number. These very men have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17, 18; see also Matthew 18:6.) There is nothing to indicate that these men did not believe in God, in the Bible, in Jesus’ sacrifice. Yet, on this one basic point, what they were teaching as to the time of the resurrection, Paul rightly branded them as apostates, with whom faithful Christians would not fellowship.

I especially like the justification in the final part of the diatribe above about Hymeneaus and Philetus. Paul said they had deviated from the truth by preaching that the resurrection has already occurred. Now how can any JW honestly read that and not wonder about the JW religion itself being a modern Hymenaeus? Why it’s official teaching on the resurrection is that it “has already occurred” after the fabled kingdoms establishment in 1914 ( w87 1/15 p. 19) to all of the saints and then to those anointed left on earth who received a “spiritual resurrection” in 1919 ( re chap. 30 p. 209)

Isn't it interesting that the Bible is missing from the list the Watchtower provided of sources of spiritual food?

Yes it is all quite fascinating really. I have also thoroughly enjoyed your posts here and so far consider you a kindred spirit. Perhaps our experiences are very similar.

Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Hi all! I am new to this thread and have lurked here for a bit.

I am quite amazed at the tenacity of thirdwitness, and some of the other JW apologists. It is hard to believe that there are others as stubborn as I was!

When I felt all alone in the congregation back in the 90's, watching the elders dominate the friends, the quackery coming out of their mouths on the platform, the backstabbing gossip, the cliques, the under current of doubt, the lack of faith, love and confidence in the bible, I found friendship and an escape in the debating done online. It was invigorating and a lot more satisfying than handing out magazines to my neighbors or the long lines at the coffee shop.

Places like JWD such as H2O (remember those days AlanF?) I could express views openly, even divergent views from the Watchtower, without reprisals, or being hauled into the library for a star chamber intervention. I was not happy, and neither was my wife who had suffered severe depression for almost all of our married life. This despite that we were both active, regular pioneers, faithful meeting “attenders” and moved in all of the right circles. I just didn't get it.

I knew something was wrong in the Watchtower, but being raised in it gave us very little perspective and I just coudn't put my finger on it. I had invested so much of my life, intellect, time and energy into the religion, I just could not bring myself around to see that it was the religion that was the cause of my unhappiness, my wife’s depression and that of almost everyone else in the witness community that I knew. (Spanish and English)

My wife’s depression ended the day we left the JW’s, and frankly I have never been so at peace myself. You JW’s know the truth in your hearts that it is only a handful of JW’s in each congregation that are not heavily medicated or else outright delusional lunatics anyway. Like the old sister in our hall who used to fill up plastic jugs with “holy water” from the fountain at the hall to afraid to drink from the water pipes coming from “Satan’s system”, among others.

Like thirdwitness I was proud to defend the Watchtower, I had to as they were my master (Rom 6:12). Most of what I wrote, I did so out of duty and fear just like he (they, as at times he seems to have different writing styles) does.

I don’t know if the question has already been raised, but why doesn’t he reveal himself? If he is “in the truth” and is speaking the truth, what does he have to fear by coming out from behind the curtain of anonymity? Alan has, so has Frank Toth and a host of others. Likewise I have no qualms about identifying who I am.

The truth is that JW’s don’t have the ability to express themselves openly. thirdwitness knows that if he reveals who he/she/they are that they will be found out and likely thrown out.

So let’s have it. Let’s see who all of you JW apologists really are. If you truly believe that Jesus is directing your religion then you know he knows already who you are. You also know that if he is directing your religion and the elders are in his “right hand of control” then they will do no harm to you as you are advancing the cause of truth here. Aren’t you?

Let’s have it before the thread gets much longer:

Name:

Congregation(if still JW):

Capacity served (if still JW):

Status (come on tell us why you are really here, are you df'd or some other JW restriction?)

601

For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled in

just got this link sent to me by my sister in law and i just keeping staring at it trying to decide where to start.

i know that arguing with a jw is like throwing miracle wheat in the wind...but i want a comeback!!!

http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm

Frank75

Alan:

I see that you are still duking it out on this 607 thing. Keep up the good work. Hopefully you will knock a few who are here only because of the lack of love in abusive religious movements like the JW's to their senses. They are here because they don't fit in with the other JW's in their community. They are all alone, weighed down and undersexed (thought I would throw that in). Here they can breath and exercise their insights outside of the controlling eyes of their elders and congregation snitches.

I still use and quote your rebuttal of the 607 dating to help any JW's who are honest enough to realize the WT has lied about practically everything they have ever written.

There are lots of good people in the dubs. We need to help them get out and on with their lives. Showing the 607-1914 chronology for what it is is like drawing back the curtain in the Wizard of Oz to expose the fraud pretending to be the Wizard (FDS).

http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/refutation-of-appendix-in-let-your.html

FRANK

601

For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled in

just got this link sent to me by my sister in law and i just keeping staring at it trying to decide where to start.

i know that arguing with a jw is like throwing miracle wheat in the wind...but i want a comeback!!!

http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm

Frank75

Alan

601

For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled in

just got this link sent to me by my sister in law and i just keeping staring at it trying to decide where to start.

i know that arguing with a jw is like throwing miracle wheat in the wind...but i want a comeback!!!

http://www.2001translation.com/587_or_607.htm

Frank75

Alan

5

"Wisdom is proved righteous by all its children"

by Frank75 in

there are many commendable things wrapped up in the witness ideal.

this is hard to dispute and is obviously what attracts people to it and did so many of us.

but just as the luster of something that we bought fades or tarnishes over time, so have the very things that may have attracted us in the first place.

Frank75

Thanks for the comments. And sorry for the "commendable" jargon....was it really that common? I recall very little "commendation" myself.

Now, can anyone tell me what I am doing wrong? I have had trouble with the last few posts. It seems whole sentences and key words are dropping into cyberspace when I submit the post!

What am doing wrong? Help!

Frank

5

"Wisdom is proved righteous by all its children"

by Frank75 in

there are many commendable things wrapped up in the witness ideal.

this is hard to dispute and is obviously what attracts people to it and did so many of us.

but just as the luster of something that we bought fades or tarnishes over time, so have the very things that may have attracted us in the first place.

Frank75

There are many commendable things wrapped up in the Witness ideal. This is hard to dispute and is obviously what attracts people to it and did so many of us. But just as the luster of something that we bought fades or tarnishes over time, so have the very things that may have attracted us in the first place.

Family and moral values are a key feature that attracted me. In time though it became clear that Witness families enjoy no better marriages than most fundamentalist groups, arguably the world in general, maybe even worse. Moral superiority is merely an illusion framed by propaganda and rhetoric. Witnesses are involved in the same moral malaise that exists in other religious groups as well as the general population. Although, for good reason, such frank statistics are not made available in the WT publications. However, to any who are honestly looking at those around them, this woefully apparent.

A clear concept of what is right and wrong, black and white, likewise attracts many, myself included. Who wants to wade through the facts, examples, parables and principles to acquire a sense of right and wrong (Heb

Brotherhood too, is what attracts. As unpopular as Communism is today, we must reflect on how refreshing its message was to millions who were oppressed by class and poverty. A cursory read of the “animal farm” will show the way any human, political or religious ideal will decay into corruption, self interest and greed leading full circle back to the very thing that it rose up to put down. One article in the WT past two years, pointedly said “Jehovah’s witnesses are a classless society”. (It hardly escaped notice that the unintended pun came through to the reader LOL) If that is so, then why are dedicated, baptized witnesses kept working in the trenches, but yet excluded from information, judicial, organizational and otherwise, which is provided to only a select few? All of Christ’s brothers are equal, except some are more equal than others. (Borrowed from Animal Farm) In the end the so-called brotherhood of the Witnesses proves to be an illusion and a pipe dream.

The continual self praise and self justification employed to prop up the witness community is very similar to what Paul dealt with in the city of . ( 2 Cor ,18) :

12 For we do not dare to class ourselves among some or compare ourselves with some who recommend themselves. Certainly they in measuring themselves by themselves and comparing themselves with themselves have no understanding…18 For not the one who recommends himself is approved, but the man whom God recommends.

Often what ensues on these boards and in the private homes (house to house NWT LOL) are useless debates over what is or isn’t stated clearly in scripture. God is the one who will judge us ultimately, as individuals and organizations. () What will be the basis of such judgment? It is my submission that HIS criteria is set out plainly in the gospel, and it is love…..”YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect”. (Matt )

(Matthew 7:16-20) 16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men].

Frank (not Ernest)

46

Preaching Slowdown

by cornish in

.

i can remember numerous talks and study articles about how the preaching work would get more and more intense as we near the end.. one so called prophetic illustration that stands out in my mind was when joshua and his men marched around the city each day and then just before the city fell they marched seven times signifying a quickening of the preaching work.. it seems starkingly obvious that the preaching,is in decline amonst jw's,the jw's are seen less and less often in my neighbourhood,it is very rare to see them out street witnesing around the town centres and railway stations,the average jw spends far less time preaching than a decade ago.. it seems like their chief brag is definately on the wain,in favour of other recruitment methods.

Frank75

It is a joke. One chronic liar was a young kid who never put his report in. When I asked, he would say "29 hours". When I said "very good, which groups do you go to, after school?" He would look to his left then right and then just say "I mean 12 hrs".....Riiiiiiight!!!!

Oh well, who is the bigger idot, him or me?

We also had two special pioneers in the hall. They did not have to turn in their report, as they sent theirs direct to the society. Even so I got them to report to encourage the brothers. What a riot, as it did not seem to matter how sick they were, or how many vacations they took, they always miraculously came up with 140 hours!....Exactly 140!!

Of course you know that the penalty for not getting your time in as a special Pio, was "no money!" No $150 allowance, was incentive enough to lie yourself purple.

With the dishonesty prevelant in the societies publications, how can the minor increases be trusted as accurate anyway....even truthful.

Frank

28

"Sins of Sodom" What were they guilty of?

by Frank75 in

i am new to posting here and thought i would get the ball rolling with .

a new thread.

lamentations 4:6 says the following (nwt):.

Frank75

How would some of you respond to Romans Chapter 1 where Paul mentions the male and female leaving the natural use of one another for one contrary to nature, male with male receving full recompense for their error?

Many fundamentalists deploy these texts to oppose tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality. These texts do make the writer's position clear. Other texts may leave room for speculation, but this chapter appears decisively postured against alternative sexual practices.

I need more information from sources other than scripture to draw temporary conclusions on this matter.

Actually it is other texts that make the writers position clear, or rather what the writer believed Gods position to be. Keep in mind this has little to do with why

28

"Sins of Sodom" What were they guilty of?

by Frank75 in

i am new to posting here and thought i would get the ball rolling with .

a new thread.

lamentations 4:6 says the following (nwt):.

Frank75

Tammy:

Fable or not, your documentary and comment on Rape, illustrate what I set out to highlight in this thread. It was Sodoms "pride, sufficiency of bread" and total disregard for others that drew attention to the creator.

If it is not true, then it at least illustrates the need all of us should have to be decent to others, especially the disadvantaged.

If it is true, then it extends hope to humans that God will not permit such things to go on indefinitely.

What has caused you to become so doubtful of the bible? Was it your association with the JW's? Or something else.

Sorry if you have explained it already, I am new here.

Frank