my hubby and i have been doing a lot of bible reading are we correct by saying that jesus never once used the name jehovah?
if the name is so important surely jesus would have used it?
the jw's say that jesus was the greatest teacher and that we should follow his example so why are they using a name that jesus did not once refer to.
Now where in the whole wide world did you hear THAT? Germans have a sound for J, don't try to even think anything else! You perhaps are mixing the Germans up with the Spanish? The Spanish J is pronounced much like the German "ch"-sound as in "achtung". In Spanish, the NAME is pronounced ch-e-o-ba.
That is not true about Spanish. No idea were you got that "ch" from. Jehovah in Spanish is pronounced heov(b)ah or Yehov(b)ah depending the dialect.
Frank75
did anything exciting or alarming ever happen at your hall?
i remember only funny incidents, like one brother getting up there with his zipper down.
(i knew alot of brothers after that felt no shame to actually check down there before going up on the podium!
Lots of stories.
On the darker side, we had two suicides in our last hall (sure there were others along the way but mostly unaware) First my wife's brother in law (I guess he was mine too) was a real hardworking slob, had two jobs and a third when he could manage to feed and cloth his 5 children and one overweight domineering wife. Naturally the whole meeting and service thing went by the side. He shared a house with my wife's brother who never worked, basically lived off insurance scams and unemployment insurance. It was a racially mixed marriage and the father in law was never really accepting of him and he knew it. Well the FIL and MIL came over one evening to share their "grave concern" over the missed meetings, family and personal study and of course Field Service! The next night he drove to a lonely concession road, attached a hose to the tailpipe and ran it into the car through the window. He was found 3 days later.
Second suicide is of a woman who was molested as a child (very attractive woman even in her 40's/50's). Because of the issues she lapsed occasionally into heavy drinking and smoking. They Df'd here and she got some treatment for the booze and cigarettes. In the ensuing 4 years neither she or anyone in her believing in good standing family received a visit from the elders or where really included in anything socially. Although my wife and I kept in touch with the husband and son and always made it a habit to talk with them when they came to meetings we were probably no better in keeping up socially with them than anyone else. When his wife came back from rehab, she asked him to ask me what she needed to "come back to the trufe". I told them I would pass the request onto the PO and then I made him promise to see her ASAP due to his being new and the "oversite" of not having been visited in the past.
4 months later there was a shocker thru the congo. She swallowed a riffle one afternoon. I went to visit the distraught husband. He had already been visited by the PO. He was told they were sorry for his loss but since she was df'd there could be no congregation involvement in the funeral. since he had no dub relatives he would need to hire a non denominational clergyman to do the funeral. Imagine that was their suggestion. Anyway I found out later that week that no attempt was ever made before the suicide to visit this woman. Typical wouldn't you say?
By the way I was removed as a MS for simply attending the funeral.
On the lighter side we had an overweight, heavy drinking elder collapse and fall off the platform during a talk. 911 called and ambulance etc.
A friend of my wife in a nearby congregation lost her dress when she got up from the table after giving a number 3 talk in the main hall. Yup right down to her undies!
When I was a kid I remember this troublesome older boy who is now an elder somewhere in the San Francisco area. His name is Warren Bell, and was a real spoiled brat! He would turn off the mic's when certain bro's were commenting from the main sound control. Or he would turn off the portable wireless mic's when handing the it to certain bros to watch them squirm while giving a comment. We had a piano and "brother" who played most songs. He was kind of effeminate and most whispered that he was a fag etc. However occasionally he actually closed the meeting or had the announcements so we had to use the recorded music. Warren used to always play the wrong song just to F' this guy up royally. He was also notorious for going through people coat pockets for money and crushing hats during the meeting.
We had a guy take the wireless microphone into the washroom once. We didn't hear him peeing but we did hear him whistling. What a laugh!
There was a sister in my friends hall who would bring water bottles to the meeting because she was convinced Satan had poisoned her home water supply. She had about 100 cats as well. So I always get a laugh when the Simpson's have the cat lady on the show.
We had this Jamaican elder who was never qualified in the JW sense, but was a good yes man and patsy for the elder body. If you will, their "token" black. He would never be prepared to give his talks. He would get up and just wing it every single time. Many times he looked very surprised when he was announced as the next speaker. This guy was priceless. I am sure everyone has had this type of loser in their hall. One time when we had the assembly hilites he rambled on for 18 minutes, leaving me with two minutes to review Saturdays parts. It was embarrassing for him to say the least. I was up for exactly 2 minutes and was a gracious as possible and then introduced the next speaker. However many wondered after the meeting what assembly he had been at since nothing he reviewed could we recall from our attendance at the assembly. Hilarious!
In the DR we had a loony sister named Dulce. She was precious to say the least. One time she showed up to give a student talk and she had dyed her hair at the salon that day. It was burgundy red in color, but what was funny was the dye was still all around her forehead, cheeks and neck. She looked like something from the Rocky Horror picture show!
There was another sister who had a moustache. I tell you it was hard as hell to keep a straight face while talking to her or calling on her to comment at the WT study.
Many of the sisters would blow their nose in their dresses. It was disgusting!
I used to be friends with this guy who's father retired and somehow got into the circuit work. The father name is (Dave Gannon) was a tyrant and people were scared shit-less of this guy. However he was different with me because I was friends with his son. I always though he was a jerk for the absolutely stupid things he said to the congregation when he visited. Well one time he went on and on about how the young people have to make the truth their own, blah blah blah. He loved to parade his children in front of the congregation so he related that one night after "lights out" he noticed some light in his sons room, so he went in and demanded an answer, "what are you doing it is past lights out?". He was reading something under the covers by flashlight. Well the son said he was reading the prophecy of Daniel because he wanted to make sure he understood it! So this pompous ass CO rags to the congregation how proud he was of his son and all dubs kids should do as his son did. The truth you ask? Well being friends with the son, the real story was that he was actually wanking off to a Penthouse magazine he got earlier that day!
This same CO went on and on at meetings and assemblies how great his kids were. His daughter married and moved to Bolivia to pioneer. We never heard the end of it in the 3 years he tyrannized our circuit. All the while he would belittle anyone who used the Internet. He would make these comments about the devil Internet and people leaving their "mates" for strangers they met on the Internet. Guess what! The daughter in Bolivia got disillusioned with the JW religion and ran off with someone....you guessed it....who she met on the Internet.
Back to the dark side. During one CO visit in the DR, we went to see a young woman who was a parrapalegic. Tragic story of how this girl was hurt in an accident. She was the only one a JW in her family and could not make it to the meetings without a great deal of hardship. Most nights she was too ill to come even when a ride was available. What was the CO going to do to help out this poor soul? Well he was very conciliatory during the visit, and he even came across as compassionate! As we left he turned to me and said I should destroy her publisher record card and she was no longer a sister. (And no I did not do as he said) I swear these guys get their play book straight from the Nazi's and the Gestapo!
I could think up tons more.
Frank75
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/opinion/08sun1.html?th&emc=th.
ok. i've been on here this weekend presenting evidence about this issue.
here's a bit more fodder for the discussion.. s4.
Educating yourself in the effects of global warming would help in this discussion.
Global warming will bring about extremes in weather....We broke the all time record for cold temps in April, where I live in the South. We've had 80 degree days for about a month...also breaking records.
SWALKER
That is just not true. You need to read the comments by Hurrican expert Christopher Landsea of the Atlantic Oceanographic & Meteorological Laboratory. A contributing author for the UN's International Panel on Climate Change here:
Or the likes of Christy et al. 2007
Frank75
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/opinion/08sun1.html?th&emc=th.
ok. i've been on here this weekend presenting evidence about this issue.
here's a bit more fodder for the discussion.. s4.
But I just posted on another thread a quote from the 2007 IPCC report showing that it has a confidence level of 90% that man's activity is warming the earth. That is up some, but not very much, from their last report.
6of9
If you read the IPCC summary statement for policy makers 2007, it becomes perfectly clear that the 90% figure comes out of thin air. It is the SUBJECTIVE opinion of the authors of the report. The process through which this subjective opinion was arrived at is not mentioned.
Surely you of all people can see the WT style slight of hand. There may very well be "90% consensus" on the cause being from "human activity". The slight of hand is two fold, first not all scientists were allowed to participate in this political process therefore rendering such a statement as totally unscientific even biased, 2nd that saying human activity is the consensus in no way fingers CO2 emissions or singles it out. As I mentioned one IPCC contributor (Christy) dismisses entirely the GHG argument but believes it is Anthropogenic land use, agriculture, irrigation etc that is mostly to blame
The whole IPCC process is about as objective as Figure Skate judging.
I give the IPCC report a 4.9!
Frank75
i am reading the bible for the first time.
i was df'd in 1976 and lived my whole life thinking the jws have the truth and i just could not live up to the standard and was doomed to die at the big a without question.
until i found jwd 31 years later.
That's exactly what I'm saying. I don't force anyone to agree with me. I let go of dogma when I left the WTS. The simplicity of faith doesn't include an indepth understanding of the Trinity. If you say it does then I'll condemn you for putting a stumbing block in front of the brethren...
Littletoe:
Although we don't see eye to eye on the global warming debate, we do agree very much on this one. It is sad to see so many who have left the dubs, but in many ways are still trapped by the mind control. The Unitarian position is just one of them.
I think that unshackled by the tentacles a former dub cannot get around the mountain of inference in the scriptures that give Divinity to Jesus and the Holy Spirit while remaining monotheistic.
By inference I mean things like Jesus in the garden of Gethsemane answering "I Am" to the soldiers and for some reason they fall to the ground. Simply explaining it away as a grammatical or syntax issue hardly explains the inference of knocking these to their knees.
One thing that cannot be disputed is that Jesus told the Jews that if they destroyed the temple HE would build it up in 3 days. (John 2:19) He was talking about his death and resurrection and the disciples recalled those words when Jesus had raised from the dead. Again no matter how you slice it, Jesus said HE would raise the temple (his body). That caused quite a commotion of credulity as the Jews thought he meant the literal temple (as per their response). If Unitarians are right and it was Jehovah God who raised Jesus, then Jesus erred in what he said. This stumbled many Jews for no reason because Jesus could have rightly responded instead that "The father would raise the temple (or his body)" and none would have disputed Gods ability to build the literal temple in 3 days! Nor would his disciples have been confused about who did the raising of Jesus.
Recently my brother who left the Witnesses had a chat with his family at dinner about the nature of God. They read some verses and he solicited his wife and 5 children to express their opinions about whether Jesus is God or not. Some of the kids saw that Jesus was God and yet others did not no doubt still influenced from the JW upbringing. My dad who lives with them and who hasn't been to a meeting in 12 years or more left the room and brought back his reasoning book to dispute what he thought my brother was teaching namely the Trinity.
My dad thought he was pushing the Trinity. The problem is that he didn't conclude anything but rather asked everyone to speak freely and did not criticise their answer. After my dad spoke my brother said to his family that the ambiguity in the bible should make any conversation about the substance of God a very minor issue and definitely not worth fighting over while in contrast what needs to be foremost are the teachings of love and clearly stated principles that Jesus preached outspokenly and parabolically.
I am really proud how far he has come in his faith. What a pleasant difference from the days of arguing over these trifles while ignoring plain statements such as the good Samaritan or what is said in Matt 7:1, 18:15-17 or the many things mentioned in the sermon on the mount.
I wish everyone could come to that reality check, but I guess we humans need drama to justify our existence.
Frank75
for the first time in a year i set foot on a kh.
the memorial to me is still somewhat sacred so i decided to attend.
i thought i would feel different, in the sense that maybe i would miss meetings, but i was wrong.
Partaking in private at home afterward -- good thinking. I never got that far when I was still "in." But I do communion now at home, too.
Abbagail:
My wife never believed that she was going to heaven at the time. Actually neither did I really as we were confused, me more than her. She liked the idea of paradise and all the rubbish that went along with it. My thought process was based on the bible as I didn't really see another hope in the gospel. As a result I just towed the JW line because I still believed it was a new revelation and the faithful slave etc. We simply partook because we believed that it didn't matter where you thought you were going, Jesus words in John 6 were clear enough, "no everlasting life unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood". Seemed pretty straight forward.
Various texts like many abodes, unless born again, one hope, faith and baptism etc gave me pause in my mind and heart. I also had a conversation around that time with my company accountant who was a former elder and quite a small "a" apostate himself. The conversation centered on the other sheep, and I asked him about Ephesians talking about the gentiles and Jews as being two different groups of sheep becoming one. He frowned and said, "yes those are the other sheep....Gentiles"
"small a apostate" -- heehee, cute. There definitely is a difference between Big A and small a, in WT-world.
It came at a cost still. The elders started to scrutinize my talks. (I was a MS under elder in other words I did everything an elder did but without the title) As my talks became kinder and more reflective of Gods grace in my own experience I had two reactions, 1 the congregation warmed to me as a person and started to seek me out for help, counsel etc, and 2, the elders began to grow more and more envious, jealous and disappointed in me. It was a 7-8 year roller coaster that eventually had me removed for going to the funeral of a DF'd woman from our congregation (she committed suicide because the elders had spurned her requests for help to come back). Later we moved to the Dominican Republic and there I was able to escape the heat, well for a period of time anyways. There I was able to see the real reasons for my removal when I got my hands on the wicked letter sent to slander me. When I found this out I tried to have it rectified and when the bethel refused to help or the elders refused to discuss the lies in that letter I found myself picking up the dreaded C of C by Ray Franz and then we just stopped going.
A few years later the local elders where we had moved to stopped by my house and summoned me to a judicial hearing where I was df'd in absentia based on the testimony of my own mother.
That is truly a high jump for memorial attendance, 30-40 to 300+ . I guess using the radio really helps rake them in.
Sickening is the word. I felt like a concert promoter the first year we participated. After that we just kept quietly in the background. Really it isn't hard to get people in a poor backwater town to go to something that would serve as a distraction from their otherwise mundane lives. Nothing on TV so let's go. There are also many people who are disillusioned with the main stream religions like the Catholic church. Also, since there is respect for the JW's even by the other religions, so they do not object to people going to such a service. I was very impressed with that attitude as i encountered it quite a bit amongst the pastores and priests I met.
Likewise just about everyone would study with the witnesses especially us gringos. Few were ever able to give up their lives to become serious witnesses (usually only politically active party members could get work). Life was a struggle for them. I could see it but the "brothers" there were brutally unforgiving. As an example, if people did not start attending the meetings regularly by chapter 2 in the knowledge book, the study was threatened and then ended. I remember arguing with the CO about this practice since the knowledge book only brought up the meeting in any meaningful way in chapter 13. Again I was just looked at as the small "a" apostate. I even tried using their own logic on them, saying, "If the FS has put meeting attendance in chapter 13 wouldn't forcing them to come in chapter 2 be running ahead? Wouldn't we be blood-guilty for stopping studies before persons had come to a knowledge of the truth?" You find that this argumentation only works when those power posturing idiots use it.
Women are virtual prisoners in these countries as well. Saddled with the heavy load of domestic duties they rarely stray far from the home. Bodega's or colmado's are across the street for overpriced food items, and a houseful of children underfoot keep them busy, close to home and exhausted. The half hour memorial was a night out that was good for the local economy. There wasn't an idol hair salon in the country!
Best to you and yours too
Frank75
for the first time in a year i set foot on a kh.
the memorial to me is still somewhat sacred so i decided to attend.
i thought i would feel different, in the sense that maybe i would miss meetings, but i was wrong.
All around it stunk but I never had the guts to "confess" how I felt about it to any other dubs during my years "in." It was my "secret sin," if you will. Thankfully I am long since "cured" of those thoughts and feelings, as I clearly see and understand WHY it was a big drag, because the whole charade is a big fat LIE since ALL believers in Christ are to PARTAKE of the emblems, and "as oft as you do this," which means any day of the week, not just once a year. It is actually a slap in the Lord's face to REJECT the emblems:
Yes it truly was and still is a slap in the face. That is why I refer to it as a Black Mass, because it is the opposite of what should happen....in many respects.
I felt like partaking back in the 90's as I felt at that time I had truly come to Christ, however I understood the peer pressure involved in not partaking. My wife and I would go home and partake in private.
At that time I saw the horrible way things were done in the congregation and tried to effect change in whatever way I could. For that I was branded an apostate, although at the time it was a "small a" apostate. So we moved away and simplified our lives in the third world hoping things would be better amongst the poor and so-called humble people.
Getting to that place is a long story, but the one thing that the 3rd world is known for is the booster attendance for the JW memorial. We were in a small congregation of 30-40 publishers and had usually 300 and up at the memorial. It was the pomp and ceremony that drove us both up the wall. Everyone goes into this frenzy inviting people, anyone with a pulse. The congregation even had adverts on the local radio station if you believe that. Getting people to come was like a bleeding PBS membership drive. This all culminating in a boring talk and 300 plus refusing the shed blood and sacrificial body of Jesus.
We returned to Canada that year and went to our last memorial and still I just couldn't work up the courage to partake. We stopped altogether not to long after that memorial.
Such a waste of an occasion as you point out. There is no real appreciation for Jesus fostered, just constant adoration of the watchtower leaders and those "hard working elders" gag. Even the prayers asking for blessing the GB just make me sick to my stomach.
Frank75
for the first time in a year i set foot on a kh.
the memorial to me is still somewhat sacred so i decided to attend.
i thought i would feel different, in the sense that maybe i would miss meetings, but i was wrong.
I guess it is free choosing that leads you guys back to the Kingdom Hall for one of the most ridculous black masses out there. Even though freedom of choice has nothing to do with our experiences in that religion.
Got my invitation from an elderly man who actually said he didn't have time to talk with me as I had some questions about his beliefs. Seemed to catch him off guard as he was stuffing the tract in my door. You know coming by a house at 10:30 during the week in a typical suburban neighborhood. Who would possibly be home? Guess again.
Nope, wasted enough time over the 40 odd years associated with the wacky witness religion, no way I will spend another second inside those walls.
I will mess with any who enter my space though.
Frank75
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/08/opinion/08sun1.html?th&emc=th.
ok. i've been on here this weekend presenting evidence about this issue.
here's a bit more fodder for the discussion.. s4.
Here is a National Post (Canadian business paper) Article to counter the NY Times article cited.
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=156df7e6-d490-41c9-8b1f-106fef8763c6&k=0
Also there are links in the article to 10 other articles on Global Warming Hysteria. Do some reading and stop adding fuel to the fire. That causes CO2 you know!
The series
Statistics needed -- The Deniers Part I
Warming is real -- and has benefits -- The Deniers Part II
The hurricane expert who stood up to UN junk science -- The Deniers Part IIIPolar scientists on thin ice -- The Deniers Part IV
The original denier: into the cold -- The Deniers Part V
The sun moves climate change -- The Deniers Part VI
Will the sun cool us? -- The Deniers Part VII
The limits of predictability -- The Deniers Part VIII
Look to Mars for the truth on global warming -- The Deniers Part IX
Limited role for C02 -- the Deniers Part X
Frank75
http://cjunk.blogspot.com/2007/02/quacks-cranks-and-junk-science.html.
are global warming skeptics really just cranks?
i don't doubt that we are having some effect on .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Milankovitch_Variations.png
This shows Precession, Obliquity, Eccentricity, Solar Forcing and Stage of Glaciation
At the risk of repeating myself, current trends are unprecidented. If this is untrue, please indicate when we had the same delta of degrees C in such a compressed period with the Precession, Obliquity, Eccentricity, Solar Forcing we currently have. You can't, and it's not because of the scale of the graph either. It is because current trends are unprecidented.
Here you jump in and out of the debate as it suits you. I only posted ancient proxy graphs to show that our earth is far from constant temperature wise. Graphs of the past 1000-2000 years show the same variations although on a smaller scale. AGW or not the one constant in our earth's climatic history is change.
I agree that at prehistoric times much of the extreme conditions are likely to have coincided with extremes in the earths Eccentricity, Obliquity and Precession, much of the data supports this as a major cause of Ice Ages every 100k years or so. Naturally the closer our orbit takes us to the sun the warmer we will be and conversely the farther the colder. However your statement of unprecedented climate rise being something new doesn't fit with the recent history. Eccentricity, Obliquity and Precession are declining from their historic maximums according to the data, but the change since the LIA and the MW are miniscule. So to answer your question, the last time delta of degrees C at a Precession of .017, .017, .0167, and .0164 Obliquity (r=21.50-24.50) of 23.57, 23.54, 23.52, and 23.44 and Eccentricity (r=0-.06) of .0171, .017, .01697 and .01675,coincided with MW spike periods 1000AD, 1180AD, 1300AD and now 2000AD respectively. Hardly a blip in the 23k, 41k, 100k and 400k cycles of their respective extremes.
Then there is the controversial TSI which is likely to be thrown in by either side in the debate. The bottom line however is that your argument is once again proved faulty.
Frank75
