Posts by Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

What does that have to do with substantiating a claim made.
As I've already noted, rosalee can't. She can give her opinion of course, but that doesn't hold much water. Your challenge to substantiate, however, was out of line. No-one should be dared in to revealing their personal information on a board.

jgnat: I have come to respect you as an intelligent, compassionate and understanding person through your depth of involvement here and the types of persons you show an interest in. However this last go around is calling into question that observation. You need to slow down and re-read what I have posted.

This recent topic is somewhat mute now as Rosalee has cleared the confusion. However I am not mistaken what she said above:

rosalee - While some apostates may sin against the Holy Spirit, some find they have just been side tracked for a while.

Even though she has back tracked (a typical dub trait as can be seen from 120 years of WT publications) the above statement has still been made that apostates find their way back to the dubs. This is not true to my knowledge.

As far as my challenge being out of line, you show again your inability to comprehend complex sentences. I asked for substantiation such as a name of such "an apostate" who came back to the dubs. An absolutely harmless way to do that would be to name them. She then said "I am one of them". I only suggested the name/local as one means of substantiating the claim whether it was her or whoever.

Likewise what I think you fail to grasp through all of this is what I will state again. If an apostate had returned to the dubs they would not get in troubled if someone on the Internet said, "Bill Watson from SF Bay West congregation was df'd as an apostate for 10 years and now he is back.

Take the cork out of your ass and your rose coloured glasses and answer, Why would they be in trouble for that?

As far as being out of line, you give no sound reasons why a person would not divulge his personal info on a board. Lots of us have, do and will continue to do it. Because we have nothing to fear. But again my challenge was to start the thought process for Rosalee that was started for me when I was met with the same challenge years ago. You know that people in East Germany were told that the Berlin Wall was to keep westerners out of their paradise too. Only the smart ones figured out that it was really there to keep them in. Rosalee may learn too if shown the way.

I know that no JW would reveal their name here because they know deep inside they would be in a crap load of trouble. First and foremost being here is a sin for them, however even if one did reveal their name how could a body of elders prove that a person with the name like "Big Tex" who said he is who he is, prove that it was REALLY him posting on this site? If he denied it, they could do nothing really unless they had other reason to df him. (Dubs don't do that if confronted because they think the elders have magic powers and know the truth magically)

Use the good sense the cosmos has given you to think these things thru before you speak!

Simple question, 75 . If I choose to take "sides" with an apologist, and challenge a dedicated member of this board, am I being "disloyal" to the cause?

I do not fully follow what your objective or reference is here. What cause is that?

Although you have ignored all of my direct questions (had you taken the time perhaps we wouldn't be at this juncture) I will respectfully attempt to address yours.

i.e. So tell me what fear should Rosalee have? ... I am keen to know how exactly you would argue that revealing their names would be harmful to her first of all or them second of all.

you presume to counsel me on how you are considered by a religion I was a part of for 40 years .... Did you even read what the KS book says? .......and others directed at Big Tex

You can take sides with whoever you want. I have agreed on occasion with a sound position that some apologists have taken. There is no shame here, as I was not talking about my view of your being apostate! You can't be that daft!

What you are failing to acknowledge, although you take some comfort in that Rosalee doesn't call you an apostate (for whatever that is worth), what I said represents the position of the JW fundy community as a whole and particularly the elders.

The purpose of JWD whether stated openly or not is to help open the eyes of dubs and to erode their attachment to the Watchtower Cult and free them. With over 12,000 posts you are essentially a pillar of that cause although I do not attempt to pigeon hole you.

Therefore as i have said and you obviously haven't comprehended, you are associating here with apostates, you consider yourself a child of god and are not supportive of JW theology therefore the things you say are generally geared to undermine confidence that dubs have in the JW organization and leadership. That makes you an apostate in the JW definition.

The dubs call Christendom apostate. Was Christendom ever baptised and dedicated JW's? Can you not grasp the simplicity.

The only distinction that I pointed out for you is that you could not be DF'd. However there is nothing stopping the elders in your boyfriends congregation from whispering in everyone's ear, or even announcing from the platform, to shun you anyway.

We had such a person (familiar, not studied or baptised but knew the apostate position) who lived in our territory who used to come to the meetings. The elders eventually got a restraining order to keep him away, they made announcement and yes they said he was apostate.

I am going back to spend some time in the sun and sip a good porter in the hot tub now, so try to absorb some reality in the meantime. And let's not fall out over this eh?

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

I am simply blown away by your reasoning or lack of reason. Also inability to read coherently what I said.

The statement made by Rosalee was that there are lots of dubs, who went apostate and then returned to dubdom. It is simply not true and is paramount to saying the moon is made of cheese.

How in the world would revealing who these contrite and penitent "former apostate" persons who have already been df'd, then reinstated, be harmful to them (or anonymous Rosalee) any more than posting the name of someone from your Allen Texas congregation who was df'd for adultery 10 years ago and long reinstated and remarried? If she offered as proof of her claim the name "Bill Watson" of the "SF bay west congregation" who was df'd in 82 for apostasy and then came back in 1992, went to the meetings until 1994 when he was reinstated and has been a loyal witness up until the present, how would that testimony put anyone in harms way?

The local elders of Bill Watson are going to hear about rosalee's post on JWD and re disfellowship poor Bill Watson? You are an idiot if that is your argument!

Now if the people she is speaking about were "secret apostates" that only "thought" apostate thoughts in a closet, we would then be talking a different matter and you might have a point. There are at least 6,000,000 dubs who fit that off the topic profile.

You and the gnat are just on a totally different wavelength and seriously lack reading comprehension.

There are creeps on the world wide web? No doubt! What does that have to do with substantiating a claim made. Naturally you totally ignore the comments made about the lack of any JW circus over such a trimphant victory. If what Rosalee says had happened just once, that person would be so well known this discussion board would need no fear of revealing their name.

You guys remind me of the brain dead divwacks at Canada Bethel that I asked why I wasn't being told who my accusers were. The answer was "the elders cannot reveal those names as they are protecting those people from possible reprisals". What might that be? Some "creep" might send them a nasty letter, leave a rude voice-mail on their phone?

You want to play emperors clothes with her, be my guest. No need to turn on me for being.....

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

Frank75, I firmly disagree with you on several points. First of all, a poster has no obligation to reveal their real identity on the boards. It is plain enough to reply to rosalee that there is no way to back up her claims with hard evidence. We know that.

Your disagreement is your business. The validity of your statements is another. I have nothing to fear by revealing my name and I do not claim to be part of "gods spirit directed loving organization". If all that challenge does is make Rosalee realize what I did so many years ago, the point is well served and does not have to be lamented by you and Big Tex.

So tell me what fear should Rosalee have. At the very least she could tell who these recovered apostates are. I am keen to know how exactly you would argue that revealing their names would be harmful to her first of all or them second of all.

If you would put the effort into reading what i wrote with comprehension you would see that all that was said was stated in hyperbole as i do not expect her to reveal herself any more than you do and mostly I do not expect her to reveal the names of these others, because the "others" DO NOT EXIST for the reasons I point out. If apostates came back to the Watchtower then the WT would have a hay day with it! This is a fantasy Rosalee has made up to help her with her dissociative mental state.

jgnat would actually still be considered an apostate by definition and the congregation told to avoid her. Your talking to her may not be a cause for DF'ing, but at least a good scolding in the back room. Just because she is not baptised would only mean she can't be formally df'd. However the Watchtower has devised lots of ways to vilify their enemies.

No I wouldn't because I am not even a study

I like your style, claiming to not be baptised and now not even studying, but you presume to counsel me on how you are considered by a religion I was a part of for 40 years.

My response again to you is, Yes you would be considered an apostate and a threat, study or not. Did you even read what the KS book says?

I have not spent a lot of time reading your posts. Generally i think you are quite negative about the Watchtower (what rational person could be otherwise?). Regardless of any of that your presence on the site as an active participant makes you as guilty of apostasy as any who are here. It is simply how it works in the Watchtower world.

Same with Rosalee. Her being here and so called "defending" the dubs is still considered disobedient, even rebellious. She would be DF'd for being here not because she has done anything wrong per se, but merely because she is now considered a first a "sharer" in our apostasy and secondly a threat.

I know a couple who were df'd for the husband simply asking about the UN membership of the Watchtower. The wife had nothing to do with it. Later when another witness in the same hall demanded to know why the first couple was df'd, he was summoned, questioned and df'd as well. The WT is paranoid about anything that exposes them.

I know another man who DA's himself. and the elders asked the wife what she was going to do. She said she wanted to "stay in the truth". After an extended illness soon after she got a phone call (message on the answering machine) stating that the elders had not seen her at the meetings for a while so they were assuming she had taken a stand with her husband and so were DA'ing if she did not call them back and assure them she was still loyal!. With good sense the woman told them to f off!

You can delude yourselves into thinking whatever you want. Elders are simply unprepared and not interested in helping people who do not follow the rules, let alone fraternise with apostates.

Getting rid of you and Rosalee is no more difficult for them than swatting a fly.

You are still an apostate (in JW terms which is what I was talking about) baptized or not.

Sweetie! Try not to be so melodramatic about what I posted.

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

For what it's worth, I agree with jgnat. You do not have to reveal anything about yourself and to do so would most likely cause you great harm. I think it takes a lot of guts to be willing to post here.

Big Tex and jgnat:

The whole "expose yourself" routine is not meant to be taken seriously by Rosalee and especially you two. She is a brainwashed JW troll, not an idiot. She knows full well what will happen if she reveals herself.

That was never the point of what I wrote. Nor was it the point when AlanF shot the same challenge at me over 10 years ago.

To do so would require a lack of fear and some honesty, which she is not showing so no need to be riding in on white chargers for her.

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

jgnat:
you are not an apostate. from what I've read you were never a dedicated, baptized Witness of Jehovah.

Rosalee:

You show here that you do not even know what your own religion's rules are on the matter.

jgnat would actually still be considered an apostate by definition and the congregation told to avoid her. Your talking to her may not be a cause for DF'ing, but at least a good scolding in the back room. Just because she is not baptised would only mean she can't be formally df'd. However the Watchtower has devised lots of ways to vilify their enemies.

Apostasy includesaction taken against true worship of Jehovah or his established order among his dedicated people KS pg 94

But how could you know, that section is found only in the secret elders KS book. You would be surprised what is found in there. I know you can read, so i am not condescending here, you would have to get/have a copy though. Want one? I am selling mine on eBay in the not too distant future!

On the other hand, talking to me, jgnat and most everyone else on this site makes you an apostate too. Your associating with us makes you a "sharer in our wicked works". No?

John counsels against speaking to or associating with a disfellowshipped or disassociated person so as not to be "a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 11 ) Scriptural and historical guidelines on how to view disfellowshipped and disassociated persons are found in The Watchtower, September 15, 1981, pages 20-31.
We need to be especially cautious about contact with disfellowshipped persons who have apostatized and those who continue in their immoral conduct. (Titus 3: 10, 11; 1. John 2:19)
These can contaminate the congregation like gangrene. (2. Tim 2:16-18)
Normally, a close relative would not be disfellowshipped for associating with a disfellowshipped person unless there is spiritual association or an effort made to justify or excuse the wrongful course. KS pg 103

So basically you are no different than any of us. I disagree with 607 and 1914, the great crowd teaching, not partaking emblems, judicial tribunals, shunning, blood components policy (etc etc) and you disagree with the rules about associating with apostates.

You are so toasted if you get caught here.

Good luck (oops forgot you're not allowed to do that are you? Oh well who will know!)

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

Rosalee -
Actually, Frank, I happen to be one.
The last thing I'd do is post names on any site.
You talk big .. post your real name :)

Rosalee: The last thing you would do is post names? How convenient for you! You realize that undermines your position substantially. Actually I did leave the options wide open to substantiate your claim. If you know another way, then by all means.....!

So seriously, quit playing around and tell us your name and where you are from. Or if you are stuck on your anonymity you could tell us which Watchtower magazine your life story is going to be featured in because for the WT this is a scoop of the century, "Apostate convinced of the error of her ways returns to Jehobah's Witless Org"!

Kinda catchy!

And what harm would there be in posting the names of "these others"? Since you are anonymous here, no one would know it was you. Oh yeah right I forgot, you are the one Witless in 6,000,000 who is principled not to do that, The same principles that are disregarded to come to our apostate website! Yeah right!

So you were DF'd for being an apostate and then after being out for some time went back to the elders, repented and were reinstated? And what exactly was your apostasy?

Hello Rosalee, I don't believe you are a returned apostate, you are a JW troll.

Just being Frank!.

My name is Rob Hameny. That wasn't hard was it?

PM me and I will give you my email address. That way you can give my email to "them" and surely one of "them" would love to help straighten me out and get me on the path again like they are. No?

I was a WitLess for 40 years "sista", and in that time I saw every type of person paraded across the platform to create the impression that only JW's had the teachings that could turn people around. Drug addicts, Prostitutes, Lesbians, Atheists, Agnostics, evolutionists, actors, musicians, Homosexuals, mafioso, boxers, soldiers, Wicca, and a hells angel (who was actually raised a witness when I questioned him after he gave his "experience") but I have never seen or heard of an experience of a wayward apostate who had recovered and come back to the fold.

Likewise, searching as you may through 65 years of watchtower misinformation on the Watchtower Library CD there is not one experience of such contrition that I can find.

If you had "come back" or anyone else had for that matter they would be paraded around in front of every circuit to thwart any would-be apostates.

You know it and so do the rest of us. YOU ARE NOT BEING AT ALL TRUTHFUL!

The door of enlightenment goes only one way - OUT! (even for a troll)

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

Well said Frank 75 ! How ya doin' man?

Good and you?

Just spent a couple of 100 $ on fireworks today for the long weekend. Tomorrow I buy the beer.

Life is bitter and hard up here in the great white north ya know!

Any new single malt scotches you want to tell me about?

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

Rosalee - The ones I speak of definitely did not return for family reasons. They got to see the error of their way and now appreciate the truth more than ever.

"the ones I speak" are right up there with "they and them" of everyday talk. It is an abstract that we are forced to, well, take your word for right? Well not quite.

Here is the deal sister Rosalee, since "these ones" who have returned due to the "error of their way" have nothing to lose by having their names exposed to us. Since they have already been df'd or DA's as apostates, they cannot be tried again for something they have been forgiven for.

So give us some names, email addy's and/or ways to verify the voracity of your statement.

Otherwise we are forced to stick to what all of us know here. The door is one way and you are closer to walking through than you know.

Tell the elders in your hall about your discussion here and see if they don't hasten you to the door, or at least hand you your hat!

Frank75

122

Trolling Apologist vs. Informed Apostate - WHO IS MORE LIKELY TO CHANGE?

by BizzyBee in

jw
friends

in the battle between apologists and apostates, who do you think more often comes around to the other point of view and why?.

imho, apologists (or trolls) are just potential apostates who need a little more time in the oven.

(in other words, they are not fully baked, only "half-baked.

Frank75

I too was one of those zealot apologists while I was trying to make sense of what was going on in what I thought was the truth. The start of my exit was reading the bible, and the bible alone. The first lesson I learned early on is that God was never institutional, nor those who followed him. That struck me considering the stories of Adam through to Jacob. If anything the nation of Israel taught me from Moses to 70ce, was that only individuals were ever able to find a spiritual connection to God. There was no way to teach, nor was there a short cut. You either had it or you didn't. Ordered religion was a disaster, even one said to be started by God, and always will be. Reading about the Israelites showed me that corruption went all the way to the top and then back down again. Seeing the wickedness in the various congregations, I had to admit it went all the way up.

The other thing the bible taught me was that most JW beliefs hung on very little solid ground. Nothing I saw in the religion remotely resembled the Christ centred early Christian way of life or the lack of enforced creeds and hierarchy. In fact I saw that Paul constantly had to fight against what the WT enforces on a daily basis, namely conformity. 2 Cor 11 can find no better parallel today than among the superfine apostles in the WT.

The lack of love in the congregations, the politics and power posturing, the creature worship, and the way clearly stated principles such as Matt 5:23-25 and Matt 18:15-17 are swept aside when it suits JW's should have been enough.

Ranting away with the likes of AlanF on H2O is what eventually led me out. Alan had a way of directly showing up my hypocrisy and that of all apologists and lurkers. They know they are not supposed to be here and either was I but here I was. Why? AlanF called it, I was here because I could not have these discussions with anyone in my congregation out of fear mostly and because of general apathy of other JW's about the teachings.

I challenge Rosalee and other apologists to go tell their families, friends and elders they are here duking it out with apostates on this website. Or better yet, bring up a discussion had here at their bookstudy or the WT study. Not going to happen is it friends?

I would bet every apologist/lurker is here for much the same reasons, namely lingering doubts and a feeling of being unloved, lost and all alone. Some are DF'd and doing this to prove to themselves they are not deficient in the JW faith. (religion is a better word)

AlanF asked me one day if I thought the Good Samaritan story would play out any different in the JW's. Say a DF'd person with a flat tire on a meeting night. How many dubs would stop to help him and risk being late, missing altogether or not doing their part. If Rosalee where to answer that question honestly, she would have felt like I did that post. I never did respond to the question, because there is no response. We all know the answer.

I struggled for a few years after that exposure, giving my all, but soon had to acknowledge that indeed, the emperor has no clothes. There is no going back to it like in the Matrix. I would hazard no one who has been exposed to the truth about the WT has gone back after leaving. It is not fair to say that just being exposed to the truth about the WT is enough because it isn't. There are many people in the religion who know it isn't the truth, but go because of various reasons, such as family, position, a lifetime of investment, no where else to go, etc.

I know a dozen or so who would be considered real dubs who know it's a sham but haven't the courage to make a move, and hundreds who just warmed their seats at the KH even just once a year in the hopes that associating will pay off better than the lottery.

Like myself, the apologist is an apostate in waiting. They are like I was, in denial. Be patient, because sooner or later they will face up and admit the real reason as to why they are here. They are not better than us, they are the same as us.

No shame in that really!

Frank75