Posts by Frank75

Like empty said, I doubt Russell was baptised as a Bible Student as he was likely dipped by one of the other religions or groups he was raised with or joined.

Freddie Franz is reported to have never submitted himself to a JW baptism (CoC I believe) as he was dipped sometime before he joined the bible students. He is most likely the one behind the WT position in the 60's and 70's that baptism doesn't join you to a religious organization or group but merely represents your dedication to God etc..

Of course the WT did a 180 in 1985 insisting that baptism then and now is somehow membership and a vow to a book publishing corporation.

Frank75

101

I've been studying with JW's for a few months..

by MichaelM in

jw
friends

i've been studying with the jw's for a few months and i've attended a few meetings but things are feeling somewhat strange...i don't quite get the jist of things but i feel that i'm learning more of what the watchtower teachers and less of what the bible actually says.. i never open my bible.. i'm always reading the watchtower pamphlets.

i really like the people i've met in the congregation and the guy thats been doing the studies with me has been an awesome friend.. .

but i'm just having some issues.. i mean.. they translated their own bible to suit their own doctrines it seems.

Frank75

You can argue both sides of most doctrinal issues using the Bible. There is seldom a clear, definite answer. If there was, there'd be far fewer denominations around.

NEJ:

Very well said!

Frank75

101

I've been studying with JW's for a few months..

by MichaelM in

jw
friends

i've been studying with the jw's for a few months and i've attended a few meetings but things are feeling somewhat strange...i don't quite get the jist of things but i feel that i'm learning more of what the watchtower teachers and less of what the bible actually says.. i never open my bible.. i'm always reading the watchtower pamphlets.

i really like the people i've met in the congregation and the guy thats been doing the studies with me has been an awesome friend.. .

but i'm just having some issues.. i mean.. they translated their own bible to suit their own doctrines it seems.

Frank75

A big question though.. If God/Jesus/Holy spirit isnt a trinity, then why do most mainstream bibles have John 1:1 say they are? Every bible i've read on specific verses like that show that Jesus is god.. Unless its a big misinterpretation. From what I figure they have tons of people translating these greek texts and scrolls and whatnot... and don't they all come up with that? the New world translation says otherwise but how accurate could that be when the translators themselves don't even know what they're doing.

What you asks begs the question. Just why is this doctrine (or similar viewpoint) so widely held in Christendom? Why does this idea seem to hold the scholars as well?

There is just as much in the bible to argue for the deity of Jesus, even some difficult to explain coexistence with or as Jehovah of the old testament. In fact there is likely more that argues the Trinitarian side than the Unitarian one IMHO.

Problem here is that we are mostly all ex dubs, or faded/inactive ones. Therefore any debate about this tends to lean harder to the Unitarian view. That is our prejudice. If this was an Ex-Catholic site, we would probably be arguing for the Trinity for the same reason.

The truth is, the bible is not clear or explicit as to how God exists. Does he exist outside of time, or is he subject to it like all of us? What is his substance or can he be described in those terms? Does he have a body? Ultimately, does he exist in a plurality?

As a result of that, the believer needs to ask himself why is the bible so ambiguous if it is so important? Considering that most pagan cultures believed in Trinity's of gods, a "loving" God would clearly identify who and what he was if it was that important. Obviously it is not!

What people who wish to follow Jesus should do, is learn what he taught about how we should live. The arguing and debating of this issue has raged for almost 2000 years. How can that be in harmony with what Jesus and his first disciples taught and stood for? The answer is obvious.

Start with reading the Gospels without any teacher with ties to a cult. If you believe Jesus spoke the truth, then believe what he said in John 14 16th chapters, namely that the Holy Spirit when it arrives will teach you ALL things. If you want to believe, then believe that. John 2:26 is good to consider too.

Any research you do should be to first get your mind around who the people were that Jesus spoke to and what can be learned about the way they lived. This will help put much of what Jesus and others wrote or said in context.

___________________________________

Since you're interested in the subject, why not look up the WT Trinity Brochure that disputes the subject. I am sure your "friend" will jump at getting you one. Look through what seems to be a powerful argument against Trinity. Then look closer.

What you will find is that starting on page 7, that several quotes are made from christian apologists of the 1st Century such as Justin Martyr. However the quoted citations location (what book or work they are taken from) are not found anywhere in the brochure. Further searching is fruitless also as they do not seem to exist. They are likely quite fake. Further, the other quotes that are vaguely cited have been meticulously edited to give the desired "Anti Trinitarian" effect. Many of those quotes are not well referenced either so you will need to dig to find them in their original context.

The basic WT argument is this, "If the early church fathers (apologist quoted page 7) did not teach or believe the Trinity or that Jesus = Jehovah, then neither should we!"

However, the knife cuts both ways on this, because if those apologists DID believe some concept of "Trinity" then the WT actually is arguing that we should accept it in a round about way. Did those early Christians believe an early form of Trinity? Well look it up and you will find ample proof that they apparently did.

I would be curious how your "Teacher" will respond if confronted with this error of the Trinity brochure. You can do so quite innocently as it is all there!

Now why would a doctrine (Unitarian view) that is said to be so plainly attested to by the bible, need to resort to such deception, dishonesty and outright fraud?

Would Jesus approve? Decide that one for yourself.

Frank75

11

Can you choose which elders you wish to deal with ?

by JH in

jw
friends

lets say that there are 4 elders in your congregation, and you don't like 1 of them, don't trust another one, but like the 2 other ones for some reason.

now lets say that the elders you don't like that much come over and want to speak to you, would they respect you if you said, "i prefer to talk to the 2 other elders instead".

i get along with them better than you guys.. i compare this to a store.

Frank75

Lets say that there are 4 elders in your congregation, and you don't like 1 of them, don't trust another one, but like the 2 other ones for some reason.

In the dub elder world, visits are to counsel because the elders have come into some juicy gossip about you. That is what makes them spring to action. If you have friends on the elder body, then your enemies will be feeding this gossip to the elders who either don't like you or who you don't like. The ones you consider good or your friend do not know you are being visited.

You can request the others, but if they are doing judicial investigation you may not get your wish. The gears being in motion make the visit confidential and outside prying elders are not welcome.

If it is just a visit to see why you're not at meetings or something trivial, then you can blow them off, call your bodies and tell them to back off.

Frank75

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Frank75

No, not easily done, but one of the JWs that I study with is showing the signs

AO:

You dirty dog you!

.....do tell though! Have you brought up the page 7 quotes in the Trinity brochure? What's your plan?

Frank75

27

Someone is Lying.....

by R.F. in

so my ex called a little while ago.

she said she was calling to check on me out of concern.

i've been to 2 meetings in a month.

Frank75

Dude! She's your X! Things like this can be toxic and harmful to you.

You really gotta ditch her and move on IMHO. There is no way a call like that should last longer than 30 seconds!

Frank75

212

WTS hasn't corrected mistakes in NWT on John 20:28.....

by A-Team in

nwt scriptures: john 20:28-29 .

28 in answer thomas said to him: my lord and my god!

29 jesus said to him: because you have seen me have you believed?

Frank75

I find that the only way to loosen the grip of the WT overbearing control on people is to those peopls that the WT isn't always corrent in its "scholarship and motive". That then opens the door for people to feel okay about thinking for themselves.
AO

AO:

Not easily done as this thread proves. The WT has some powerful voodoo!

Frank75

23

My daughter's wedding photos (I got to go!)

by alamb in

jw
friends

my daughter got married last week....and i got to go!

please see her photos at www.mjmorganphoto.com.. go to proofing and then type "jessy".

everything was so beautiful and the photos are outstanding.. .

Frank75

I see that they couldn't get permission to use the kingdom hall....LOL

Sorry, just thru that in because it has gotten so hard to get the hall most don't even bother around here anymore.

The pic's are absolutely stunning and I thought the sunset ones was an great touch. A beach wedding! Awesome. I wish them all the happiness they can find.

Any chance they will make a run for it?

Frank75