Posts by Frank75

83

THE BORG WANTS YOUR NUMBER

by Mary in

jw
friends

my elderly dub aunt (who's the biggest whiner the world has ever seen) came over tonight to first of all, whine about how her neighbour shuts her kitchen cupboard doors in the most annoying way possible and her dog barks and what was she supposed to do about it?

anyway, as soon as these monumental problems were solved, she informed me that at the bookstudy the other night, the conductor told everyone to "stay after the prayer" as he had 'something important to announce.

" naturally everyone did this, all the while wondering if the red phone at patterson was in direct contact with jehovah himself as the study was being conducted.

Frank75

Here is the secret document.

It is the Watchtower's agenda to kill as many trees as possible before the end comes.

Frank75

37

Elders Letter: Big Announcement/Why they want all the telephone #'s

by dannyboy in

jw
friends

august 28, 2006 .

to all bodies of elders and traveling overseers

dear brothers, .

Frank75

I believe this is the new Orwellian document everyone is buzzzzing over. "Someone you can give the elders elsewhere in the country in event of disaster"

Give me a break!

Frank75

43

Last talk at the District Convention

by BurnTheShips in

jw
friends

first post here.

a full fledged ms in the borg in south florida usa!

yep, you got a live one here!

Frank75

Losch brought up 1975 and compared it to a mother being wrong on predicting the day her baby would be born-of course she wouldn't throw out the baby clothes, cribs, etc because of this, she KNOWS the baby is coming!

Just chock that up to the kooky crap they can get away with and people don't get up and walk out after hearing it.....I guess I put up with it too.

I had a similar comeback from a JW Apologist on another site who said this. (She has been a JW since 1993, and doesn't believe any negative JW history prior to that time is relevant to her.)

I have, however, heard as in the last convention I attended two weeks ago that the speaker said: "this may be our last convention before the new system." Then there was SILENCE. Then the speaker said: "But I have been saying this for the last 50 years." Then the audience broke into laughter.

Ha ha ha ha haaaha! That is so funny isn't it? The above comment is typical of the cavalier attitude these guys have about what they said in the past and how it has affected thousands of people lives. Like a cat toying with a mouse, or an "evil slave beating his fellow slaves" they get a sadistic pleasure from it.

I myself say, I hope this car will last until Armageddon.

You see, accusation like this has become an inside joke. Nobody I know, not in the congregation or JW I meet in the ministry has ever said to me about the exact "day and hour." It's probably just misinterpretation.

She must meet lots of JW's in "the ministry".

I responded this way to her and make it apply doubly so to Losche:

The difference is that if you said to all the people in your community that you are a prophet of the true God "Jehovah" and you have been appointed by him to speak for him in these days, and then you said that Armageddon is so close within 5 or 10 years and that your car will last until then…..then that makes you a false prophet if you car does not last until the end or if the end does not come in 5 to 10 years.

No one would be upset at the mother who sincerely believed that her child would be born on a certain date.

Who they would be upset with would be the Doctor who told them the date, made them book a hospital on that date and bullied them into doing so by power posturing the mother with "Do you not know who I am and what my credentials are as well as extensive education?". "If you do not pack your bags right now you are an idiot!"

To be more appropriate to the context of JW's is that after all of that, the woman wasn't even pregnant, but the Doctor still sent her a bill!!

Frank75

22

The watchtower admit to being a false religion!

by fullofdoubtnow in

jw
friends

the forthcoming tract, "the end of false religion is near", contains this statement about how false religions will behave on page 2: .

tolerates immoral sex: in western lands, church groups ordain gay and lesbian members of the clergy and urge governments to recognize same - sex marriages.

even churches that condemn immorality have tolerated religious leaders who have sexually abused children.. frankly, i don't know how they dare include this statement.

Frank75

Watchtower DOES have paid clergy! COs and DOs are given an allowance and a brand new car to get about in. PLUS, in our congregation we always donated money to them to "help them get by."
OK, the allowance isn't much - but I never saw any overseers starving, threadbare and driving around in rust buckets.
Ian

Two things about your comment. Much or little

When we were in the dominican Republic we had CO visits from these petty little dictators. The last one before we left stayed in our home, ate all of our food (our fault as we told them to help themselves), drove in our car while I paid a neighbor to "garage" the CO car for protection. After a week he presented us with a bill for the equivalent of $90 with no receipts. (average income in DR is $250-300/month, so you do the math) I showed him what the instructions say about receipts and he told me to call Bethel with a smirk. They told me to give him his money, which was to come from the poor brothers in the small congregation of JW's. I ended up giving it to him from my own pocket.

It may not be much here (US/Canada), but $350-400/month plus a car and other spiffs such as dental and health care and a $3000 "clothing allowance for him and his wife every year show why these rice Christians are so zealous for the Watchtower mythology.

In the same congregation there were 2 Canadian Special pioneers (married couple). The Society provided a nice house (Florida construction concrete block stucko with full convenience electrical, phone, water etc) health care, dental, clothing allowance as well as flights back to family in emergency (they seemed quite able to concoct an emergency every year). Family provided a modest car. Additionally they got $300 US allowance every month (150 each) plus a liberally applied reimbursement program. This required a minimum of 140 hours spent in service. You know, no matter how much they were sick, or busy doing other things they always managed to hit 140 hours dead on.....

DR is a poorer developing country with lots of modern amenities. I do not want to belittle the privations that many of these people from the first world had to endure while there. However we have to believe that "compensation" gravity of scale is far worse in dirt poor third world countries like Haiti (India, Africa). We met people from Haiti and the Society had all sorts of inducements for people to stay. Religion makes big money as the WT financials show.

Instead of money, the JW Clergy in the First world get prestige and power. In Jesus assesment of the Jewish religious leaders this reward was due compensation. Whatever way that you look at it they are as you said "a paid Clergy".

Frank75

49

Who is an Apostate?

by thirdwitness in

here is an interesting link http://www.tjdefendidos.org/ and here is an english translation of the article on that site about apostates testimony.

is the testimony of apostates reliable?

sometimes, the mass media offer testimonies of people who used to be jehovah's witnesses as a means of finding out more about our religion.

Frank75

Here is a quote from the JW Trinity Brochure, that is not referenced to any writing from Justin Martyr making a contextual check very difficult, (I could not find it):

Justin Martyr, who died about 165 C.E., called the prehuman Jesus a created angel who is "other than the God who made all things." He said that Jesus was inferior to God and "never did anything except what the Creator . . . willed him to do and say."

No matter what you believe, is lieing by forgery justified to prove your contention? If the Trinity or Deity of Christ is not true, then the evidence would not need to be contrived. Here is a series of quotes attributed to Martyr referenced to a work:

Justin Martyr (110-165 AD):
"... nor to know that the Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God." - First Apology of Justin, Ch LXIII; "... but now you will permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and the Lord of hosts ..." - Dialogue with Trypho, Ch XXXVI; "Therefore these words testify explicitly that He is witnessed to by Him who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ." - Ibid, Ch LXIII.

Which seems true or truthfuly conveyed, no matter what you believe?

In fact none of the following quotes from the Trinity brochure are referenced or likely from any known works yet all of the quotations from these same men immediately below are referenced and definitely show a leaning toward the Deity of Christ and/or Trinitarian Unity!

Irenaeus, who died about 200 C.E., said that the prehuman Jesus had a separate existence from God and was inferior to him. He showed that Jesus is not equal to the "One true and only God," who is "supreme over all, and besides whom there is no other."

Clement of Alexandria, who died about 215 C.E., called Jesus in his prehuman existence "a creature" but called God "the uncreated and imperishable and only true God." He said that the Son "is next to the only omnipotent Father" but not equal to him.

Tertullian, who died about 230 C.E., taught the supremacy of God. He observed: "The Father is different from the Son (another), as he is greater; as he who begets is different from him who is begotten; he who sends, different from him who is sent." He also said: "There was a time when the Son was not. . . . Before all things, God was alone."

Hippolytus, who died about 235 C.E., said that God is "the one God, the first and the only One, the Maker and Lord of all," who "had nothing co-eval [of equal age] with him . . . But he was One, alone by himself; who, willing it, called into being what had no being before," such as the created prehuman Jesus.

Origen, who died about 250 C.E., said that "the Father and Son are two substances . . . two things as to their essence," and that "compared with the Father, [the Son] is a very small light."

True quotes:

Irenaeus (120-202 AD):
"... and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King ..." - Against Heresies, Bk 1, Ch 10; "But that He is in His own right , beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets and apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth." - Against Heresies, Bk 3, Ch 19.
Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD):
"For 'before the morning star it was;' and 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'" and "This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man ..." and "The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher; that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends." - Exhortation to the Heathen, Ch 1.
Tertullian (145-220 AD):
"Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the virgin, and to have been born of her - being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ." and "... while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing them in their order the three Persons - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost ..." - Against Praxeas, Ch 2; "With these did He then speak, in the Unity of the Trinity, as with His ministers and witnesses." and "...I mean the Word of God, 'through whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made.' Now if He too is God, according to John (who says) 'The Word was God'..." - Against Praxeas, Ch 12.
Hippolytus (170-236 AD):
"For he speaks to this effect: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.'" and "...'Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.' And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth." - Against the Heresy of One Noetus, Ch 14; "For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings." - The Refutation of All Heresies, Bk 10, Ch 30. Origen (185-254 AD):
"From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all ..." - Origen de Principiis, 1.3.2; "For it is one and the same thing to have a share in the Holy Spirit, which is (the Spirit) of the Father and the Son, since the nature of the Trinity is one and incorporeal." - Origen de Principiis, 4.1.32

I would be curious to know what would result from you JW apologist out there asking the elders in your congregation or better yet writing the Society to get the actual reference pages for the quotations that they use. Tell them someone in your ministry asked you (me).

Before leaving the dubs I wrote several letters in a humble inquisitive manner on various topics including this one and received no replies.

Frank75

49

Who is an Apostate?

by thirdwitness in

here is an interesting link http://www.tjdefendidos.org/ and here is an english translation of the article on that site about apostates testimony.

is the testimony of apostates reliable?

sometimes, the mass media offer testimonies of people who used to be jehovah's witnesses as a means of finding out more about our religion.

Frank75

How the Jehovah's Witnesses “Diabolize” Former Members

The following excerpts from a WT article [The Watchtower, July 1, 1994, pp. 11-13] shows the absolute desperation the Watchtower society is facing regarding the worldwide flood of exposure of its lies, false prophecies and inhuman dictatorial treatment of its members:

Beware of the Poisonous Food on the Table of Demons

Comment: Interesting title as the knife cuts both ways! How does one determine the origin of what he is reading/hearing? By the fruitage born by those who follow it.

"Food on the table of demons is poisonous. Consider, for example, the food dispensed by the evil slave class and the apostates. It does not nourish or build up; it is not wholesome. It cannot be, for the apostates have stopped feeding at Jehovah's table.”

Comment: first sentence: “demonic food is poisonous” ? The implication that critics of the Watchtower are demonic is absurd. Just assertion presented as fact. What is false or wrong about what critics of the Witnesses say? It is slander to malign without proof. Who is imitating the “devil” here? (Diabolos = slanderer Greek) An honest inquiry will show that much of what the Watchtower says is in fact poisonous as past errors and direction has caused the break up of families, heartache, financial loss, pain and suffering even death. Also its actions towards former members are reminiscent of the bibles description of the “evil Slave”.

"As a result, whatever they had developed of the new personality is gone."

Comment: What real evidence of the “new personality” exists among JW’s? Most witnesses are lonely, or feel left out, because not everyone can fit into the cliques that exist. There are ongoing feuds between professed brothers; fraud, slander and gossipy back stabbing are rife, and the love, if any, that exists is purely “conditional”. Conditional love is not really love at all. (1 Cor 13:3-8) And there is the pandemic of depression, mental illness and a feeling of worthlessness. The fact is that most ex-witnesses have become more Christ-like even if they do not profess to be Christian or religious. They have humbled themselves like Abraham to leave the relative "mental" comfort and safety of their former community at great personal cost. (Heb 13:13) They have stopped judging who their brothers are based on man-made guidelines such as hours spent distributing literature or attendance records at meetings. They have stopped condemning others and stopped making false statements to their neighbors about the future. They have chosen rather the simpler Gospel of Christ which emphasizes Love, Forgiveness of sins and Salvation through faith in Christ. They have rejected a perverted Gospel that elevates certain classes to lord it over others and had the heavy weight of their pharisaic burdens lifted off of them.

"What motivates them is, not holy spirit, but vitriolic bitterness. They are obsessed with only one aim -- beating their former fellow slaves, as Jesus foretold. -- Matthew 24:48, 49."

Comment: We don't want to beat our former fellow slaves. The Watchtower society has a fabulous infrastructure designed for just that purpose. Gestapo-like Inquisitional Judicial Tribunals do that! In fact the scripture used here to back this statement condemns the Watchtower leaders, as Jesus said that the evil slave first says in his heart “my master is delaying” (vs 48). A prerequisite then for being an evil slave is having a certain expectation or “date” in mind for Christ’s coming. It is the Watchtower that has set unrealized time expectations for this to occur. The resultant disappointment and bitterness is evidenced by the lack of love that exists in the ranks of JW’s and especially among long time members and higher ups such as CO’s, DO’s and Bethelites.

"Yes, apostates publish literature that resorts to distortions, half-truths, and outright falsehood."

Comment: of course the WTS won't give any examples of this assertion. Moreover there are ABUNDANT examples of the WTS' distortions, half-truths and outright falsehoods. However the average Witness is intimidated into avoiding anything critical of their religion or leaders, so it is very hard for them to see for themselves just how error ridden the Watchtower is. Why aren’t JWs even allowed to see if it is true or not? A sincere JW has to ask himself, "if this is so true, then why can't I verify these statements for myself without being excommunicated?"

"They even picket Witness conventions, trying to trap the unwary."

Comment: Did the writer forget that for over a dozen years, Rutherford used to routinely order JWs by the hundreds and even thousands to swarm all over the neighborhood churches wearing sandwich cards which said "Religion is a Snare and a Racket", and to harass the peaceful church-goers with their unwanted tracts and message? I remember doing this as recent as 1969 with my parents at an assembly. This is a form of false argument called Special Pleading. You cannot use the picketing of conventions to prove Apostasy without condemning all who have employed this method.

"Hence, it would be a dangerous thing to allow our curiosity to move us to feed on such writings or to listen to their abusive speech! While we might not think it a risk for us personally, the hazard remains”.
Why? For one thing, some of the apostate literature presents falsehoods by means of "smooth talk" and "counterfeit words." (Romans 16:17, 18; 2 Peter 2:3)

Abusive speech?! It's ok for the WTS to call all other religions "whores" and "spiritual fornicators", but should someone dare say they have evidence that the WTS is not what it claims to be, that is "abusive speech"? Hypocrites! (Luke 11:47,48)

"What would you expect from the table of demons?"

Once again, the WTS has equated critics and former members, many of which merely present their evidence from the WTS literature itself as feeding others "from the table of demons." What are they saying then about such references? Are they not saying that these references from the the WT publications are in reality the table of demons? Only an idiot could not see that this type of circular reasoning insults the common sense of any average person.

"And while the apostates may also present certain facts, these are usually taken out of context with the goal of drawing others away from the table of Jehovah. All their writings simply criticize and tear down! Nothing is upbuilding."

Notice that no examples are given of what is "usually" taken out of context? To the WTS, "up building" means "don't examine, and don't criticize anything we have done or said in the past, even if it is true."

"Jesus said: "By their fruits you will recognize them." (Matthew 7:16) What, now, are the fruits of the apostates and their publications? Four things mark their propaganda. (1) Cleverness. Ephesians says that they are "cunning in contriving error." (2) Prideful intelligence. (3) Lack of love. (4) Dishonesty in various forms. These are the very ingredients of the food that is on the table of demons, all of which is designed to undermine the faith of Jehovah's people."

Again this paragraph cuts both ways! But the Witness is not permitted to look at the cunning, clever and dishonest manner that most of their cherished literature has been put together. Could someone please explain to us what "prideful intelligence" means? It seems to mean something like "if you use your brains and figure out something different than us or we said wrong then you are just too darn proud of your intellect and so shame on you".

"As loyal servants of Jehovah, why would we even want to peek at the propaganda put out by these rejecters of Jehovah's table who now verbally beat those who are helping us take in "healthful words"? -- 2 Timothy 1:13."

Why? Because there is a mountain of TRUTH in that so-called "propaganda", that's why. THAT is the reason the WTS is so desperately and strongly "encouraging" you not to look at that information

You owe it to yourself and your loved ones to do it.

Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Sorry to add this but the last post i made would not insert this part no matter what I did:

Most of the people who were disillusioned to hear about the UN fiasco, didn't leave the Dubs, they just called the WT headquarters, the local Bethel or asked their elders. Both WT sources repeatedly denied any involvement at all. In fact I believe even still people are told it is simply not true, they have never joined or been a member, NGO or anything. The elders on the other hand have just DF'd or DA'd any who come forward. I personally know a young couple that only asked about it, were invited to the KH to get an answer and were sent home after 5 minutes DA'd with no explanation. They didn't need to turn off their car it was so quick.

Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

OK Thirdwitness, there is a website devoted to explaining and rationalizing the WT membership with the "Scarlet Colored Wild Beast".

We were all born yesterday and you have come to enlighten us?

It doesn't matter that a rank and file JW who just got a job to paint the graffiti off of a Church wall would be reproved, even DF'd for doing so, or an overweight dub in a rural town who was told by his doctor to go to the YMCA to exercise is DF'd for interfaith no questions asked, we have to forgive this indiscretion by the WT just because some dub has put together a "guilty with an explanation" excuse?

Do you know what happens to people who try to explain or rationalize their wrongs to a judicial committees?

Why isn't this explanation coming from the FDS through the Watchtower? Show some Godly humility and come clean about it?

The rest of it is all self serving from people who have invested their life in the religious equivalent to Enron. They just refuse to accept that the map they have is a fraud. There is no pot of gold.
It seems that you have now come somewhat clean, so let me know what you have to say about Luke 21:8? Who does that warning apply to if not the WT organization?

Help yourself here a little.

What the hell is wrong with the formatting here. Is this thread like the original Pakman that goes half screen after a certain level like 50 pages?

Brother!

Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

Thirdwitness: Are you worried that someone might see through your apostate lies and trappings? By all means, lets allow links to all kinds of apostate sites but if anyone puts a link to sites that disprove the apostate lies, then remove them. Hide the truth so you can continue to spread your poison to unwary ones.

That is not nice. Your own leaders say it is wrong to call someone an apostate.

Watchtower Magazine Feb 15, 2006 page 31

“What then did the expression “despicable fool” signify? The word used here sounded similar to a Hebrew term that means “rebellious” or “mutinous.” It designates a person as morally worthless, an apostate and a rebel against God. So the person addressing his fellow as a “despicable fool” is saying that [he] should receive … everlasting destruction. From God’s standpoint, the one uttering such a condemnation against another could merit that severe sentence – everlasting destruction – Himself. (Deut 19:17-19)”

Bad form indeed. A good look at what happened to Moses for calling the people "apostate" was he lost out on entering his promised land.
Wouldn't it be a terrible waste if after these 50 pages and your total indoctrination on this 607 Gentile times garbage that you throw all of your "Millenial" hopes away by getting down and dirty with the people here who are just trying to help you?
Tsk Tsk
Frank75

1380

The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible

by thirdwitness in

think about this: if seven times mean only 7 years then daniel could have simply said 7 years.

why does daniel specifically use the word 'times' rather than years?

as we have already shown daniel used the word for 7 times instead of 7 years.

Frank75

I recommend that you write down what you believe about rulership and authority. In separate columns. Get your opinion on the understanding of those two concepts well in mind. Then read the Christian Greek Scriptures without using any Watchtower Society literature or apostate literature. Make note of every instance that discusses rulership or authority and study out what the verses have to say.
That is what a Bible student does if they want to know about a specific subject in the Bible. You will come away with a completely different perspective than you have now. Guaranteed.
Respectfully,

AuldSoul

This is the best way to get a clear biblical perspective I agree. I had a JW who was leaving the witnesses come to ask me some questions and naturally they do not know what to keep in their bag of beliefs and what to discard. They even still call the JW beliefs the truth until they discover one by one they are anything but.

I recommend discarding virtually everything, even cherished beliefs until you have read the bible, at least the NT, other versions of it of course, and then systematically build your beliefs after coming up with the basics about Jesus and his teachings.

This leaving dub wanted to understand about the paradise earth that he was sure the bible spoke about. He believed that there we will all be perfect. I asked him to look up every reference to perfection and perfect in the bible after at least reading the gospel of Matthew and John. Then research those related terms, the context and let me know what you find. He was white as a ghost when we revisted the results.

His family has told him that I have brainwashed and mislead him although I rarely discuss or mention my personal beliefs on any given subject. However the truth is that he is washing his own brain with his own bible which is still the NWT

AuldSoul has given some excellent advice. You have nothing to lose, but everthing to gain by following it.

Frank75