has anyone a transcription of beware of the voice of strangers?.
greets,.
heianderen.
The transcription is finished in its entirety. It is being indexed into table format. After it is done, it will be posted or linked on the "quotes" site, I believe. In the meantime, I have the entire ranscript on my hard-drive in three parts also. If someone wants it for something and can't wait, (it should be up soon), PM me and I will send it to you.
Odrade
okay, there's the bible which is the inspired word of god right?
it is the message from god to manking, only its written in mystery and puzzles so only people with a good heart can understand it, right?
so we need bible aids to explain to people what the bible is saying, because only the faithful and discreet slave really understand what the bible says and so they have to make it understandable.
Here's a scripture we didn't read too much as J-duds:
"The words of the wise ones are like oxgoads, and just like nails driven in are those indulging in collections of sentences; they have been given from one shepherd. As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh." --Eccl 12: 11,12
I had a householder take my bible out of my hands and read me that scripture when I was about 19. Then he said that JWs spend so much time on all the books that they didn't have time for the Bible. He said he would never be interested in the JW faith because they are devoted to their books. That always stuck in my mind, because I didn't know what to do with that idea. I finally, many years later, understand what he was trying to tell me.
Odrade
edit to add: I guess we did read that script periodically, but only as a warning not to read too many secular books. Guess they couldn't see the other 3 fingers pointing back at THEM. HAHA.
if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".
it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.
how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?
Okay, I'm one of the ones who has vaccilated in this thread. At the beginning I was "Duh, yes mind control" and towards the middle I was feeling that mind control does not apply because so many witnesses know what they are doing and why they do it. Still they choose to anyways.
I think the issue in my mind is one of responsibility. Are JWs under mind control, in other words, so manipulated and brainwashed, that it absolves them of responsibility to be moral and functioning members of society? Or are they so controlled that they have no capacity or ability to decide their own actions?
Random House/Webster defines brainwashing as:
1. a method for systematically changing attitudes or altering beliefs, esp. through the use of torture, drugs, or psychological-stress techniques.
2 any method of controlled systematic indoctrination, esp. one based on repetition or confusion.
Using these definitions one could say that, yes, with very few exceptions, JWs are brainwashed or mind-controlled. However, because JWs are still marginally a part of regular society through work, school and housing, they have opportunity to challenge the "repetitive and systematic indoctrination." Some do, many even, so this gives credence to the feeling that they are not truly "under mind control." They certainly can learn to think for themselves, and some do. Many choose not to.
One thought occured to me, that maybe the manipulation is more critical to the argument. The extent to which deception is involved is very telling. Ideas are presented as fact, in such a way that no one thinks to challenge the idea. After all, they have already built up a history of "truthfulness" with the new recruit, using scriptures. One who has a working knowledge of scripture before encounter with Witnesses is not as vulnerable. The vast majority of people who come into JWism from the "world" are very green with regard to the bible and religion, sometimes having no background at all. They have nothing to challenge the new teachings and are inclined to accept anything they are shown in the bible. Therefore they are highly vulnerable to manipulation and indoctrination. Of the others, those "born to it" like I was, are vulnerable because of never having known anything else.
But there is problem with blaming the WTS wholesale for the indoctrination of its converts. Use of the term "mind control" implies that inductees have NO choice in their involvement. That they bear NO responsibility for their decision to adhere to WTS teachings and "spirit of the rules." I don't believe WTS has reached that point where they are such skilled brainwashers that people are really UNABLE to think for themselves. It is a weakness across the board in people, the vast majority wanting to be told what to believe and handed their beliefs and morals, without thinking for themselves. The WTS and other cults merely take advantage of that fact to a greater or lesser degree.
Is it really "mind control" if you are allowing someone else to dictate your thoughts, morals and beliefs? Or is it natural weakness? When I really stop and think of "mind control" I am reminded of the scene in "Clockwork Orange" where McDowell has his eyes held open and his thoughts filled with graphic images. Clearly no JW is subjected to that kind of brainwashing.
I'm forced to remember some of the things I have done as a "good JW" that it never occured to me to challenge. Things I can look back now and say "Why did I ever do that?" So does that mean my actions were a product of mind control? If mind control means a lack of education as to my options, then yes. If mind control means I was forced to do that, then NO. I chose to act that way, based on the information I had. IMO, the only solid accusation I can make against WTS in that case is "control of information flow." It definitely impacted my actions, but does not excuse me from investigating.
It would be easy if I could blame all the unkind, unjust, and uninformed things I have ever done, on "mind control." But I find now, in good conscience, that I have to take a great deal of responsibility myself for my actions. The WTS set the stage, but I still chose to act accordingly. Was I manipulated and deceived into my actions? YES, most assuredly. Was I under "mind control?" Probably, but it really depends on how one defines it. And even after definition, it is purely subjective. Each person should look back and determine for themselves how controlled they were, and to what measure they have to take responsibility for themselves.
Odrade
ya know, i've had to wonder, since the comment had been posed to me some time ago about various parts of the world, and how close they live to their respective bethels.
so how close do you live to bethel (of your country)?.
the reason i ask is, at least around here, the closer you live to bethel, it seems the more spiritual (jw sense of the word) some of our posters are.
I live as far from Bethel (US) as one can be. But I have close family ties to it. I think on this forum at least, anonymity stems not from being uncommitted to freedom from the cult, but rather from the pain that THEIR policy of shunning causes when you leave publicly. Think about it this way: If tomorrow, JWs completely dropped their policy of shunning those who reject their doctrines... you no longer had to DA to get out, your family could still talk to you, and were encouraged to maintain family connection. How many of us "faders" would keep our id a secret? Wouldn't you come right out and say "I don't believe that anymore. I just want to leave JWs quietly." ??
I would, but because of the sanctions WT imposes on those who don't believe exactly as told, in order to not lose family, we have to keep these secrets. I don't know that physical proximity to Bethel makes such a difference as much as how close one is to family, or how much you stand to lose by not keeping your real opinions to yourself.
my nephew has been working for a jw, for about three years, part-time of course, has to do more service, pays him next to nothing, good training and learning experience though, but three years, and paying $7.00 an hour for maybe 20 hours a week, while the employer has a new car, and just bought a bigger house ???
yep, go figure ......................, that's the kind of person i want to work for, and the sad thing is, if he was to quit tomorrow, there are 20 little jw dubs ready to vulture into the job.
unreal !!!.
Okay, the first dissenting answer. Yes, I worked for Witnesses, and it was a wonderful experience. No joke. I worked for a brother for several years. He paid me slightly more than the prevailing rate for my type of work. He guaranteed my hours, gave me time off when I wanted it. He was always fair, when the economy went south he kept me on as long as possible, then let me go fairly and with notice.
I've come to realize that my experience working for/with JWs is not standard, but it should be, if they practiced what they preach. He was exactly the kind of fair boss that the Dubs would have you believe they all are.
Odrade
i got to hear some real bad news
i was speaking to my 'best friends' sister only minutes ago.
my 'best friend' i used to do everything with.
Hamas, I shunned my best friend. Not quite like yours did. She never came around after she was df'd. But I didn't go looking for her either. Later, I wised up, but it took me years to find her again. When I did, I told her how sorry I was for shunning her.
She said, "It's okay, I understand why you did it."
Hamas, nothing ever felt as good as knowing she doesn't blame me for being a WT idiot. If your friend ever wakes up and comes to you, try to do like she did. We are as close as we ever were.
Odrade
about seven weeks ago i posted here for the first time.
in that post i said i'd like to be reinstated but felt it likely wouldn't happen because the shunning was too much for me.
well, my prayers have been answered and i am reinstated.
So... even though the decision has been made to let you be reinstated, you must still be shunned for an entire additional week because of a power outage? Technically you are still disfellowshipped right? so if you are in a fatal car accident before the next Thursday night meeting, will all your brothers and sisters stay away from the funeral which your family will have to have in a mortuary home because you haven't been reinstated yet, due to a power outage? I'm very confused.
I really hope you are happy back at the kingdom hall with your loving brothers and sisters, and I hope they welcome you back. Always follow your heart, and try and be kind and compassionate to others.
Odrade
i just read blondies watchtower comments and was thinking about the j-duds and their version of love.they talk about how god loved us even when we were sinners.
a policy far removed from the j-duds.
my daughter, who i have custody of, has been having trouble with her j-dud mother.
Ugggh. give her an extra hug and kiss from me. She did good, graduating, and she's got a good life ahead of her.
You're a good daddy. Just keep loving that girl and she'll survive whatever her so-called "mom" does to her.
.
when you were still faithful to the borg, did you shun family or other people, because of the watchtower ???.
when you look back now, what goes through your mind ??
Yes, shamefully. I used to look at df'd people though and smile. I thought it was my own little secret way of communicting I wished they would come back. How ridiculous, they must have thought I was a lunatic. (Even more of one than the average Dub.)
I shunned my very best friend. Now we are back in contact and talk everyday. I am so happy. Thankfully, she understands my motives for my actions, however misguided they were.
I won't ever do it again, from either side. If my "fade" doesn't work, I will also not ever walk by a witness with my head down. I will look them in the eye and force them to actively shun me.
Odrade
if you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".
it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.
how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?
Heathen, I think I know what GaryBuss is saying. I was just that way. You have all this "teaching" and though you know there are conflicting viewpoints out there, you CHOOSE to act the way you do as a JW. You choose not to feel bad about shunning, though every instinct tells you it is despicable. You choose to not feel bad as you are deprived of your non-JW family. After all you are only protecting yourself from "worldly influences."
Yes, there is indoctrination, but as a member of the human race, any JW who stops and thinks for just a moment KNOWS in his heart that his actions are not only unkind, but unchristian and unacceptable. Yet he CHOOSES to sublimate those moral and instinctive feelings. Instead he makes the decision to "remain pure" and follow an organization that controls his every move. Willingly. I knew exactly what I was doing when I was "in." And when my instincts told me what I was doing was cruel or wrong, I just ignored it. Deliberately.
For that, they are ultimately individually responsible for their actions. People can get out, and do. Unlike some very extreme cults, many, if not most JW knowingly subject themselves to the isolation and "mind control," because it feels good to believe that they alone have "the truth." I think many people do get trapped unwittingly, but to stay there is to stick your head in the sand. Sometimes that feels safer than making up your own mind, but refusing to find out the truth because some men in Brooklyn tell you to "Beware the Voice of Strangers" is as much a choice as knowing it and ignoring it.
Odrade
