Posts by whatif

33

Post the funniest WTBTS quote you can think of

by DuvanMuvan in

just felt like a laugh.. if any funny quotes come to mind feel free to post them here.

whatif

which stories with Andre? Don't remember them

41

Circuit Overseer wakes up, packs his bags and leaves!

by Anony Mous in

i just heard this about a co i knew back in the day before he was even a co. he must be in his mid-late 40's now, my mother told me the story as she knows the family very well (the entire family has gone 'apostate' including several elders, circuit overseers and missionaries - this was an "example" family, always on the stage etc).. he wasn't 'feeling well' so he took time off from his co duties.

that week he packed his suitcase, told his wife he can't do it anymore and he's leaving, leaves her the car and the house and went to live in a small apartment, bought a small car and a week later got a decent job.. this was very recent so not everybody within the org has heard yet what happened..

whatif

"He left her the car and the house and then bought a small car.." How many circuit overseers have a house? And how many have enough money to go buy a new car?

18

This truly pisses me off

by Terry in

http://www.jw.org/en/news/by-region/asia/kyrgyzstan/court-ruling-for-conscientious-objectors/.

december 30, 2013 | kyrgyzstan.

kyrgyzstan court rules in favor of conscientious objectors bishkek, kyrgyzstanthe constitutional chamber of the supreme court of kyrgyzstan unanimously declared on november 19, 2013, that the countrys current law on alternative service is unconstitutional and violates the right of freedom of religion.

whatif

Hi Terry, Looking forward to reading your book. In the meanwhile I was just curious to know if the alternate service you were counseled that you could not accept and remain in Jehovah's favor, was it civilian in nature or under military control?

17

A Greek JW serves 15? yrs in prison for his neutrality position.

by smiddy in

i`m thinking back to the 1960`s/70s of a watchtower article who described a greek brother who was imprisoned for refusing military conscription service and was sentenced to 5 yrs imprionment by the govt.at the end of his confinement he was again ordered to serve in the military,which he declined and was sentenced to another 5 yrs in prison ,i think this occured one more time.

( at that time their was no way you did alternative service ) of course he was hailed as a faithful brother who wouldn`t compromise his beleifs.of course their were probably many more people who went through an experience like this.is their anybody on the board who can verify,or enlighten us to this experience?

i would like to know what happened to the poor buggers who sacrificed their lives in this way.. smiddy.

whatif

Thanks for the clarification Raymond. Too bad the local Bethel didn't insist on at least allowing the brothers to choose as a matter of conscience and at the very least refuse to disfellowship anyone accepting the prison work.

31

Epic FAIL! :( My sister is gone from me.

by Faithful Witness in

got this email from my sister today.

there is a lot of back story, and this isn't a surprise.

it will be interesting to see how it affects the rest of the family, if they hear about it or not.

whatif

I hope you will be able to have a good heart-to heart with her after your email. I'm wondering if it would help if you were both to agree to not discussing religion when you are together and at family events. Just enjoy doing stuff together and enjoy family time. It may remove the stress and emotions she is finding difficult to balance if she knows you're not trying to stop her from being a JW and also her not trying to get you to be a JW either.

@crazy2try: It's interesting that your mom's parents disowned her for becoming a Witness. Having lived that from her parents I'm just wondering if she did the same to you for no longer being a Witness? So true how many JW's in the 70's and 80's were unnecessarily strict to make sure there was absolutely no semblance of being like the world. It's so different today. I like how a lot of the younger couples/families plan so many fun things for their kids and not just taking them on field service everytime they have a break from school. Little girls having tea parties dressed as their favorite Disney princess. Lot of fun outings and kid parties with games, and gifts - and yes, wrapped gifts! Not to mention a lot of other occasions for parties and gift-giving. When someone moves to a new apartment/house...there's a housewarming. Someone moves away...goodbye party. Graduation parties. Anniversaries, baby showers, bridal showers, bachelor/bachelorette parties. And of course lot of gift-giving going on here with fun and games. Then there are many themed congregation get-togethers like luau's etc. I can go on and on. I would have a hard time believing JW kids today feel deprived. The new generation are getting way more gifts than their counterparts get for b-days and Christmas. I think that's terrific of the parents today. They don't want their kids going to school saying they don't get gifts nor feel like they are missing something because of being a JW. In the 70's it was like parents were going out of their way to make sure their kids stood out like a sore thumb. It was a different world and a different time.

17

A Greek JW serves 15? yrs in prison for his neutrality position.

by smiddy in

i`m thinking back to the 1960`s/70s of a watchtower article who described a greek brother who was imprisoned for refusing military conscription service and was sentenced to 5 yrs imprionment by the govt.at the end of his confinement he was again ordered to serve in the military,which he declined and was sentenced to another 5 yrs in prison ,i think this occured one more time.

( at that time their was no way you did alternative service ) of course he was hailed as a faithful brother who wouldn`t compromise his beleifs.of course their were probably many more people who went through an experience like this.is their anybody on the board who can verify,or enlighten us to this experience?

i would like to know what happened to the poor buggers who sacrificed their lives in this way.. smiddy.

whatif

Hi Raymond, thank you for providing this link about conscientious objectors to military service in Greece. I found it very interesting.

I noted it said:

"In September 1977, on the last day of the Parliamentary sessions, the Karamanlis government of New Democracy (right party) passes law 731, under the pressure of international organizations and especially of the Council of Europe. According to this law, those who refuse to be drafted for religious reasons can choose between serving a four-year unarmed service in a camp and getting imprisoned for four years in military prisons, being exempted afterwards from any new call to serve. Two years before, during the constitutional reform of 1975, the proposal of PA.SO.K. (Pan-Hellenic Socialist Movement) for the institution of an alternative civil service for those who refuse to serve their military service for religious or ideological reasons had been rejected by the ruling party of New Democracy."

Before Greece actually allowed alternative civil service the choice for religious objectors was either to serve the military in a military camp in unarmed service or be imprisoned. Both choices were for 4 years which was double the time of those doing military service. There was no civil service. JW's obviously chose to be imprisoned to serving the military even though in unarmed service. At the end of the article it says,

"As expected, the law did not solve the several and complex problems which had been accumulated all these years. Nevertheless, its voting was welcomed as a positive step both by abroad and by the Greek conscientious objectors who chose to support the institution with their participation. From 1998 until today, around 2000 conscientious objectors (the vast majority being Jehovah’s Witnesses) have served or are serving an alternative civilian service."

On that same site, http://www.antirrisies.gr/upr2011 it mentions that this law was first introduced in 1997. There doesn't seem to have been a choice of civilian service prior to that.

The right to Conscientious Objection in Greece

"(4) Law 2510 of 1997, the first law introducing civilian service, was the result of European and UN pressure, but the majority of its provisions had a punitive and discriminatory character for conscientious objectors. In 2005, the law was reformed (Law 3421/2005), but with no substantial changes. In September 2010 a new Law (3883/2010) was introduced. According to this law, the duration of civilian service is double than the military one, which is obviously punitive in nature. The duration may be decreased by decision of the Minister of Defence, but must be equal to the maximum duration of the military service increased by at least two months. Currently this would equal 14 months, because the military service in the naval and air forces lasts 12 months. So again it would be punitive because the military service in the land forces lasts nine months and it’s this that the vast majority of the conscripts serve."

Also, if you go to the War Resisters' web site, http://www.wri-irg.org/programmes/world_survey/country_report/en/Greece

it confirms when Greece began offering alternative civil service:

Conscientious objection

Conscientious objection for conscripts

The right to conscientious objection was first recognised in 1997 with Law 2510/19978. This law came into effect on 1 January 1998. Presently, this right is regulated by Law 3421/2005. Both religious and non-religious grounds for conscientious objection are legally recognised.

And as noted above, From 1998 until today, around 2000 conscientious objectors (the vast majority being Jehovah’s Witnesses) have served or are serving an alternative civilian service."

In your post above, you wrote,

"Greece didn't offer any alternative civic service up to the late 80's .When that happened many brothers accepted to work in prison under the supervision of the Ministry of Defence .Initially Bethel gave "the green light" for accepting these jobs ,then changed their mind and gave them an ultimatum ,resign or be disfellowshiped ."

Any research I did only came up with substitute civil service being available in 1998. Are you able to provide proof to your post above?

Thanks.

17

A Greek JW serves 15? yrs in prison for his neutrality position.

by smiddy in

i`m thinking back to the 1960`s/70s of a watchtower article who described a greek brother who was imprisoned for refusing military conscription service and was sentenced to 5 yrs imprionment by the govt.at the end of his confinement he was again ordered to serve in the military,which he declined and was sentenced to another 5 yrs in prison ,i think this occured one more time.

( at that time their was no way you did alternative service ) of course he was hailed as a faithful brother who wouldn`t compromise his beleifs.of course their were probably many more people who went through an experience like this.is their anybody on the board who can verify,or enlighten us to this experience?

i would like to know what happened to the poor buggers who sacrificed their lives in this way.. smiddy.

whatif

Smiddy, as you mention, Greece never offered alternative service. It was either military or prison (with torture) no other choice. And the brothers would get re-sentenced over and over again. But it was my understanding that the brothers were fighting to get alternative service offered to them. That is, civilian service in lieu of military. It was Greece who would not allow it and thus the many human rights court cases as a result of this. And when Greece finally, after a lot of supreme court trials, offered civilian service to JW conscientious objectors it was a major victory and was greatly rejoiced over and accepted. They always wanted to do civil service as a substitute to the obligatory military draft for young men in Greece.

31

Epic FAIL! :( My sister is gone from me.

by Faithful Witness in

got this email from my sister today.

there is a lot of back story, and this isn't a surprise.

it will be interesting to see how it affects the rest of the family, if they hear about it or not.

whatif

Sorry to hear your sister has cut you off. Only you and her can know why this has affected her so emotionally to resort to that when it just doesn't make sense at least to me. I truly hope the situation can resolve itself with a happy outcome for both of you. So sad when this happens...wish you all the best through this trying time.

@crazy2try: You say that if your relatives had tried to give more gifts you knew your parents would not have permitted them. I don't understand why the gifts had to be given casually and unwrapped and why you feel your parents would not have let them give you more. JW's don't have anything against giving or receiving gifts, whether wrapped or unwrapped, as a surprise or not, and for any occasion other than a holiday they don't celebrate and to and from anyone - JW or not. I can understand your being hurt if your parents did that but they made up their own rules for that. There are no JW rules on gift giving. It's only the holidays they don't celebrate.

19

I got my money back

by Faithful Witness in

jw
friends

i posted a question here after i sent packages to my jw niece and nephew in december.

i wasn't sure what the response would be.

yesterday, i got an email that the packages were "undeliverable," and my money was refunded.

whatif

I also think it's astonishing that your sister is treating you this way. I apologize for my comments as I didn't have the whole background. It's hard to have the whole picture without hearing both sides and having the background history. For what it's worth, we have a fairly large family with quite a few religions in the mix, a few atheists and a few agnostics. None of us, including JW's and all the rest have let religion divide us. If anything, the JW's in my family go above and beyond to make sure non JW family is always included and assured of their love. They take the initiative to have family parties as they do not go to the Christmas and birthday events. And the family bond has not changed at all. I could never stop talking or speak just twice a year to my sister because of changing religions.

It's very strange that your sister and parents were offended for not being included in last year's Christmas event...don't really know what to say to that. Without knowing anything more to the whole story and just going by your comments, I think the problem is your sister and has nothing to do with the JW's. Some people that study and become JW's can become quite fanatic if that is their personality. They then have less to do with their non-JW family leaving the family to feel that the JW's are tearing their family apart. JW's are encouraged to show extra love to non-JW family. The problem is your sister not the JW's. I really feel sorry about that and hope you will be able to get back to having the sister or parent relationship you used to have with them in spite of differing beliefs.

19

I got my money back

by Faithful Witness in

jw
friends

i posted a question here after i sent packages to my jw niece and nephew in december.

i wasn't sure what the response would be.

yesterday, i got an email that the packages were "undeliverable," and my money was refunded.

whatif

I agree with ruderedhead about sending the gifts AFTER the holiday but even going further and sending any gifts another month so as not to be viewed as Christmas gifts. If your niece/nephew were of the Jewish/Hindu/Muslim faith would you be sending them Christmas gifts? You want your family to respect your wishes of no longer wanting to be a JW so why not show that you respect their wishes to not celebrate the holidays? Why not show you're above their shunning you and show you want acceptance, tolerance and love. Unless your goal was just to piss your sister off since she's not talking to you and you decided to shove Christmas in their face??

You wrote, "I've wrestled with this idea since we started celebrating Christmas with my kids 3 years ago....." I don't understand why you need to wrestle with it. They don't do Christmas just like you didn't 3 yrs ago. If it's really about the kids and your love and generosity then surely you can send them gifts at another time.