Posts by StarTrekAngel

54

WHEN people leave a cult...MAN landed on the moon? Or critical thinking......

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

i believe anyone who has voluntarily left a cult has shown they can adapt to new solutions, and have used " critical thinking" skills otherwise most would not have left.. yet i believe a safe place for support is still needed and this safe place i believe is searched for.. now i may not measure up to much in ways of education, but for me personally " critical thinking skills" = " new" a " new" way of thinking, that takes time for me the individual to be visual and to contemplate.

and the more i read about " critical thinking," the more convinced i am that i can live with the ridicule of those that claim i do not possess it.

furthermore i would say those that criticise others " critical thinking skills," often luck the sensibility and thoughts to snore, spit, and fart....nor would they understand a room full of tobacco smoke and cheap booze...where " critical thinking " can often be found in its most profound, in the most sensitive poems and "pictures" that were ever drawn.

StarTrekAngel

It means they may have some critical thinking skills, not necessarily that they do.

It seem like you stated that you can have some critical thinking but not all of it. Not sure I understand that under the definition of critical thinking. Bolds mine.

statement by Michael Scriven & Richard Paul, presented at the 8th Annual International Conference on Critical Thinking and Education Reform, Summer 1987.

Critical thinking is the intellectually disciplined process of actively and skillfully conceptualizing, applying, analyzing, synthesizing, and/or evaluating information gathered from, or generated by, observation, experience, reflection, reasoning, or communication, as a guide to belief and action. In its exemplary form, it is based on universal intellectual values that transcend subject matter divisions: clarity, accuracy, precision, consistency, relevance, sound evidence, good reasons, depth, breadth, and fairness.

As you can see, critical thinking has more in common with a computer CPU than it does with the amount of knowledge that you hold. In database terms we name this "garbage in-garbage out". A computer is not any better than the information it holds. If you provide the right information it can process it and give a good outcome but you can not fault the CPU if the information isn't there. This is why you will get a bad response if you generalize 'lack of critical thinking' under something that could be defined as 'ignorance'. You are pretty much telling someone that they don't have a brain.

That not responding in such cases rests credibility to your views. Is a matter of honor, wether you are right or wrong. But that is fine, you don't have to. You owe the answer, not to me, but to your ideals.

13

Drama played at pioneer school

by StarTrekAngel in

i was having breakfast at home earlier this morning when my mil sat down at the table.

she started re hashing her previous day with us (wife and myself).

she was relating a story she got from another close relative who just finished the pioneer school.

StarTrekAngel

Yes. That was the most shocking part to me. Since I walked into the conversation when it had started, I missed the part where this had taken place. It wasn't until she was done that I asked again.. where was this at? I was assuming all along this was during some sort of social gathering. JWs in my area have the custom of putting up plays done by publishers to celebrate pioneers. I was shocked to hear this was during a pioneer school. Now let me clarify, this wasn't official WT drama. This was put in front of the school as a sort of closing ceremony. But still, the fact that someone who is there to teach pioneers allowed this message to be played, means they support the idea.

54

WHEN people leave a cult...MAN landed on the moon? Or critical thinking......

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

i believe anyone who has voluntarily left a cult has shown they can adapt to new solutions, and have used " critical thinking" skills otherwise most would not have left.. yet i believe a safe place for support is still needed and this safe place i believe is searched for.. now i may not measure up to much in ways of education, but for me personally " critical thinking skills" = " new" a " new" way of thinking, that takes time for me the individual to be visual and to contemplate.

and the more i read about " critical thinking," the more convinced i am that i can live with the ridicule of those that claim i do not possess it.

furthermore i would say those that criticise others " critical thinking skills," often luck the sensibility and thoughts to snore, spit, and fart....nor would they understand a room full of tobacco smoke and cheap booze...where " critical thinking " can often be found in its most profound, in the most sensitive poems and "pictures" that were ever drawn.

StarTrekAngel

You still didn't accept my apology.

I just can't wrapt my head around this last thing you said. it means they may have some thinking skills? but they don't? Sorry, excuse my stupidity.

I don't think I can make it any more clear for you. You accused me of having "pretend knowledge" in another thread and then you went silent. You seem to get conveniently "bored" or "busy". I am busy too. I don't start arguments I know I won't have time to finish. I have a job too.

Anyway, to answer more in line with Cappytan's perspective. I think I had the critical thinking skills to see this cult for what it was all along. What I lacked was the information that needed processing. Namely history of the cult and past fiascos. Critical thinking is not the cake mix, is the mixer. If yo came to me and told me I did not have critical thinking skills I would have taken offense, because in my limited knowledge of the situation I was under the understanding that I was fine. The other half of the debate (the cult) also managed to convinced that I indeed had critical thinking skills and that is why I was in the cult. When the other information required came up, then I was quickly able to see the light. In other words, I was ignorant, not incapable of reasoning based on facts. I don't min d people calling me ignorant. I know I ignore many things.

20

How Scary Are Circuit Overseers Now?

by minimus in

jw
friends

back in the day, when the co came to the congregation, it was quite stressful for the elders and often, the rank and file.

.

is it as big a deal as it used to be?.

StarTrekAngel

Oh and the video opened with the reference to Paul as a "traveling overseer of the first century congregation". The video compares the modern days CO to Paul. I guess they forgot the part where Paul worked to earn a living.

20

How Scary Are Circuit Overseers Now?

by minimus in

jw
friends

back in the day, when the co came to the congregation, it was quite stressful for the elders and often, the rank and file.

.

is it as big a deal as it used to be?.

StarTrekAngel

LOL. Just last night in our meeting, during the local needs section, they pulled up the video projector. We were told that they org wanted us to see this video before the next visit. The whole theme of the video was about the love that CO's have for us. There was an noticeable amount of "we love each and everyone one of you" despite not really knowing you. We miss you when we leave, etc etc. The mention was made that some people think that they are there to chastise and feel scared but they wanted to assure that they were there with the intention of working together. There was also an insistence on "supporting" the visit in "any way we can"

13

Drama played at pioneer school

by StarTrekAngel in

i was having breakfast at home earlier this morning when my mil sat down at the table.

she started re hashing her previous day with us (wife and myself).

she was relating a story she got from another close relative who just finished the pioneer school.

StarTrekAngel

I was having breakfast at home earlier this morning when my MIL sat down at the table. She started re hashing her previous day with us (wife and myself). She was relating a story she got from another close relative who just finished the pioneer school. I got into the conversation half way so I did not know if this happened in a social gathering or something else. She was referring a play that went on as follows...

One brother played the role of an angel. He was standing guard at the entrance of paradise. Another brother approached. I guess either after the big A or resurrection. He wanted to enter the paradise but the angel stopped him and said

Angel- I need to see if your name is written in my book

Brother- it should be

Angel- I don't see it here and that means you many not enter but lets us find out if there is a way we can help you. Did you attend all meeting?

Brother- I believe I did.

Angel- Lets us ask. Chair (as in chair from the KH), did he attend all meetings?

Chair- Yes he did, but for the most part, he kept me warm. Nothing else

Angel- Fair enough. Insight book, did he read you?

Book- (coughing) Not so much, that is why I am covered in dust

Angel- Watchtower magazine, did he ever picked you up and study you?

WT magazine- No not really, and considering that I have lost weight, he should have been able to. (this las one really made me laugh. Lost weight=got thinner)

In a nutshell this concluded the play. It was only then that I realized that this wasn't some brother trying to play artist. This was at the pioneer school. There was a few other examples but this were the highlights. Nowhere there was any questions to wether this brother was honest and loving or if he showed any other christian qualities.

I pointed that out to my mother in law and she said that is exactly what she needed to hear from that play. Something that made her think how she lacked appreciation for Jehovah's provisions (namely books and magazines). I had to re iterate I was referring to the other christian qualities that I mentioned. That got her thinking but after a while, she changed the subject.

54

WHEN people leave a cult...MAN landed on the moon? Or critical thinking......

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

i believe anyone who has voluntarily left a cult has shown they can adapt to new solutions, and have used " critical thinking" skills otherwise most would not have left.. yet i believe a safe place for support is still needed and this safe place i believe is searched for.. now i may not measure up to much in ways of education, but for me personally " critical thinking skills" = " new" a " new" way of thinking, that takes time for me the individual to be visual and to contemplate.

and the more i read about " critical thinking," the more convinced i am that i can live with the ridicule of those that claim i do not possess it.

furthermore i would say those that criticise others " critical thinking skills," often luck the sensibility and thoughts to snore, spit, and fart....nor would they understand a room full of tobacco smoke and cheap booze...where " critical thinking " can often be found in its most profound, in the most sensitive poems and "pictures" that were ever drawn.

StarTrekAngel

Viviane,

I think I have at least three situations in which you pointed out the same things and when I either offered an apology or a clearer explanation you banished. You have a tendency to drop this kind of statements and disappear. Based on your last post here, I would expect you would hang around and help us see what we lack. Thus applying your compassion.

In another note, I don't see how you can compare critical thinking with a skill like playing golf. If there is anything that shows me your lack of both, critical thinking and compassion (on your own words), is this last idea. For once, thinking, critical or not, is what makes us humans as a whole but also what makes us unique among other humans. It forges a lot of what we know as life. Playing golf is entertainment for the most part. Learning golf is not nearly as difficult as critical thinking. Not even ballpark (sounds familiar? I still waiting for you to accept my apology on that other thread, which would not bother me if I didn't respect you). Having critical thinking skills is a matter of perspective. If I am talking to a golfer and I have knowledge of golf, I can discuss golf matters with him but if I don't l don't know golf, then I don't have the skills to critically think about golf. Therefore, telling someone that they don't have critical thinking skills is an absolute statement and will always be offensive. An emotional answer is expected because you just offended the very nature of self. Telling someone "you don't know shit about golf" if it is clearly evident by his game, is different.

Like i said in another thread, for a rocket scientist, the rules of orbital mechanics are common sense.

21

Theory of Evolution and humanity are moving in parallel, and in opposite direction too!

by iconoclastic in

proponents of evolution theory was comfortable with their easiest method of induction that says something like this: i saw a blind man in the us, then in russia, then in australian, then in africa ..., hence all men are blind.

yet proofs are abundant for the decline (opposite of evolution) we experience globally!.

1) most humans declined into greed, the result of which is climate change which has the potential to wipe out all life from the earth.

StarTrekAngel

Saint,

1) Agree. Abundance was there for some but in many cases, the most precious bounty had to be chased and it could also attack you. It wasn't an easy life. This was ok while we were living in small groups. This does not work well when we have to feed millions. We quickly saw the benefit of raising and growing our own food. However, some noticed that they could manipulate other to feed them instead of having to hunt themselves. Look at some of the prescriptions for the priests of Israel. I am trying to keep this short but even in a culture of abundance, you still had to go up to the three and pick your own fruit.

2) True, but I believe that his prediction has worked for the current situation. I am not sure if he made any further predictions, but could it be said that the same ability to communicate will eventually brings us back together? May be the collective human race is acting like when you meet a new friend. We are now at a stage of misunderstanding each other because this ability to communicate has just brought us together. May be this same ability will finally help us settle our differences and end up bringing us closer.

3) Totall agree

4) Is difficult at this stage to tell if decease is winning the battle. We may have won over many of them but we don't know the long term effects. A long time ago, the development of antibiotics was seen as a win. Today over prescription is seen as a lurking danger. Sure it was our fault, but it shows that we grow in waves, not always in a straight line upwards and it shows that what we consider an absolute success today, may not be that much after all and may need rethinking. Hopefully longer term adjustments are detected and made soon before it becomes and irreversible problem. We are living longer, but is also understood that in many places the morbidity (a measure of the quality of life) is severely declining towards the later part of life. People are getting chronic deceases earlier in life.

5) My grandfather use to say how screwed up the world was getting and I could not understand what he was talking about. I am now beginning to have the same feeling but I can not help and see that, if he thought the world was bad in the 80's, that he would be totally outraged by the world of today. I also see from history that there are some things in which we have improved, in a way, not absolute. We don't sacrifice humans in an altar anymore, but we do sacrifice them in the name of other things by means of war and hunger. Could it by that here we also grow in waves?

21

Theory of Evolution and humanity are moving in parallel, and in opposite direction too!

by iconoclastic in

proponents of evolution theory was comfortable with their easiest method of induction that says something like this: i saw a blind man in the us, then in russia, then in australian, then in africa ..., hence all men are blind.

yet proofs are abundant for the decline (opposite of evolution) we experience globally!.

1) most humans declined into greed, the result of which is climate change which has the potential to wipe out all life from the earth.

StarTrekAngel

True. Evolution is full of dead ends. Not everything evolves for the "better". At the end, survival is what shows if evolution adapted to the current situation.

However, some of the points iconoclastic brings up, are the very reasons why I strongly believe in social evolution as well. In the animal kingdom, life is not respected the same way humans do. Survival of the fittest does not care about moral values in the animal kingdom. We humans are driven to save and conserve every life and we consider this idea to be of a higher order of thinking (I am not here to debate wether this is correct or not, is just a fact and I agree with preserving life). At the same time, we pretty much live in the same environment as the animals and therefore under some of the same rules. We have introduced some rules of our own, namely religion, finance, technology, etc. Some of the by products of the above, like global warming, deforestation, etc, have taken its toll on the planet much much faster than what is known to be common in evolutionary changes. In other words, we have introduced a ripple in the evolutionary order, bigger than any other drastic weather change on record. Social evolution has its effects on this as many of the above. Could this be one of the dead ends? May be, but I can not help and see how our social and moral values have contributed to the overall decisions made. This wasn't all driven by instinct. True, there is a degree of it, we are programmed to survive and as such, we will consume. But even in the animal kingdom some animals think twice about things. Some tarantulas protect a tiny race of frogs from predators because this frogs eat insects that would otherwise eat the tarantula's eggs. If that was the case for humans, in some cases we would have eaten the frog before we realized what kind of benefit it brought to us.

54

WHEN people leave a cult...MAN landed on the moon? Or critical thinking......

by The Rebel in

jw
friends

i believe anyone who has voluntarily left a cult has shown they can adapt to new solutions, and have used " critical thinking" skills otherwise most would not have left.. yet i believe a safe place for support is still needed and this safe place i believe is searched for.. now i may not measure up to much in ways of education, but for me personally " critical thinking skills" = " new" a " new" way of thinking, that takes time for me the individual to be visual and to contemplate.

and the more i read about " critical thinking," the more convinced i am that i can live with the ridicule of those that claim i do not possess it.

furthermore i would say those that criticise others " critical thinking skills," often luck the sensibility and thoughts to snore, spit, and fart....nor would they understand a room full of tobacco smoke and cheap booze...where " critical thinking " can often be found in its most profound, in the most sensitive poems and "pictures" that were ever drawn.

StarTrekAngel

There is some truth to what you are saying. Critical thinking is definitely in short supply but at the same time, perspective and context can change the angle of reasoning.

In the other hand, there are people whom sole purpose in life is to pick apart the belief of others. My boss at work, for example, can enter a debate of almost any subject. He spends most his days reading and reading, hardly sleeps. Unfortunately, unless he started the discussion, he tends to not contribute anything meaningful to the discussion but rather centers in picking apart everyone else's statements to judge them in isolation. I would not have a problem if he disagrees with me. I can say white, he can say black, not an issue there. I have a problem though when you rather make a goal to say is not white but I am not going to bother showing you why I believe is black. Some people have left the cult but they don't realize when they have become a cult themselves. I don't mind if someone has a belief that is somewhat unfounded or is a grey area. However, if you are willing and ready to discuss it, don't walk away in the uncomfortable moments. It does nothing for your cause.