I'm not buying it! That people left the Witnesses and became Christians. (page 2)

Spectre

I used to wonder the same thing myself as I would never join another religion. I find much more enjoyment now in reading psychology and philosophy books then I could ever get by going back to any sort of church.

Ianone

Why Churchianity Isn't What Jesus Intends for HIS Church

Shall I be intimidated by the power of traditions of men and the massive numbers of churchians who try to silence the rebuke churchianity must receive from the Scriptures? Or, shall I rather not seek to obey God instead, and to point out how radically different churchianity is from what Jesus intends for His Church?

I shall not be silent! Churchianity is not exempt from being examined carefully in the light of contextually interpreted Scripture to any less degree than churchianity dares to critique any cult or pagan culture!

Jesus did not intend His Church to be focused upon meetings in special buildings, under the "authority" of a select group of overseers bearing titles and power "forbidden" to the saints of God. Jesus did not intend His Church to be pursuing endless doctrines while ignoring the functions and lifestyle of being HIS disciple.

Jesus did not intend that His disciples give time and money to an institution, and to support buildings for their own comfort and entertainment, and pay salaries for titled overlords, instead of giving to the poor and needy (read Matthew 25.31-46).

Jesus did not intend that leadership in His Church be far removed from servanthood and doing His works; nor that disciples (saints) be far removed from ministry and making disciples.

Jesus did not intend His Church to be "culturally relevant" and in love with materialism and the flesh; nor to "sell" Himself and His Gospel in carnal packaging with appeals to self-preservation. He died not for the focus of forgiving our sins and promising us a future in heaven, but (rather) that we might be conformed to His righteousness (Romans 8.29) and do His works (Ephesians 2.10).

Jesus never intended His Church to be institutionalized and made into a set of traditions and rituals and committees and programs. HE set the program for HIS disciples: make disciples and do HIS works (not "church works"). Choir practice is a distraction from doing His will. "Church" fundraising is a distraction from doing His will. All the endless activities of churchianity are distractions from doing Jesus' will for HIS Church.

So, what are we going to do? Continue to be slaves to traditions? Or, are we going to wake up and recognize that the Scriptures hold us to a standard of being totally submitted to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, entering into His Kingdom, and doing His works by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit?

Can't make it without the rubber crutch of churchianity? Well, the rubber crutch of churchianity is also not teaching you to be totally loyal to Jesus Christ and do His will, either. So, it isn't even an acceptable crutch for discipleship.

Either you love Jesus and are totally surrendered to Him, or you are fooling yourself into believing that you can be a Christian because of doing a few religious things and continue living with pagan cultural values. Thankfully, I do not have to answer for you. But, the Scriptures totally refute the mentality of churchianity, and its powerful ability to make people dependent upon churchianity, redefining discipleship, and making people feel "saved" while they continue in the flesh, pagan values and self-indulgence.

Do you really know Jesus? I challenge you to read through the Four Gospels and challenge yourself with the question of whether you know Jesus as He is (as found in Scripture), or if you have some fairy tale concept of Jesus which churchianity has sold you on. God isn't going to ask what churchianity taught you. He will ask if you studied His Word and were obedient to it.

Churchianity is centered in tradition and Pauline theology, while either ignoring or redefining what Jesus taught about His Church. Let me ask you: should Paul interpret Jesus, Who is God in the flesh? Or, should Paul's teaching be interpreted according to what Jesus taught about HIS Church?

.. and, please don't try to make me the issue. It is Jesus' teachings themselves that refute the forms and traditions of churchianity! Deal with the issues instead of trying to protect your own comfort zones and authority by trying to defame the messenger. This is an incredible characteristic of the proponents of churchianity. When the issues are raised from Scripture, they refuse to deal with them, and instead do everything they can to smear the messenger. It is safer to deal with hateful pagans than with a churchianity pastor who is protecting his salary and power!! halleluia anyhow!

Churchianity enslaves the people of God to the programs and authoritarianism of the institution instead of teaching loyalty to Christ alone and equipping the saints to do His works of ministry.

Churchianity makes church workers instead of disciples who do Jesus' works.

Churchianity focuses upon doctrines instead of upon being Jesus disciple, following HIM continually and doing His works.

Churchianity follows the patterns of this world (see Romans 12.2) and "sells" Jesus in a carnally attractive package instead of calling a sinning people to repentance and surrender to our Lord Jesus Christ.

Churchianity builds buildings instead of temples of the Holy Spirit. (When the Protestant movement broke from the Roman church, the break was not complete, for the Protestants continued to follow the forms [somewhat revised, but still the same forms] as the Roman church .... human hierarchy, liturgy and buildings which replace what Jesus called for: that we follow Him and give Him our total loyalty.)

Churchianity fosters loyalty to itself instead of teaching absolute loyalty to Jesus Christ our Lord.
Churchianity diverts time and funds intended for helping the poor and doing the work of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God in the community.

Overcoming the corruption and power of tradition

A subscriber wrote a question and the reply I wrote became this edition of the Challenger. I realized as I wrote that I was writing for the Body of Christ, not just one person. So, here is a challenge that I trust you will read very carefully and take very seriously.

" My question, keeping in mind that I still agree with everything you have said so far, is this:
Is it possible to work within the system? What I mean is doing somewhat like Paul did as he went to the synagogues seeking to win his fellow Jews."

Let me ask you something ... if a system corrupts the message and the people, should one spend time there attempting to do what is right?

Paul always went to the synagogues first, but he never stayed there. He quickly ended up ministering in a house or a borrowed hall to the handful of believing Jews who heard and received the Word he preached in the synagogues, but the daily gatherings quickly became more numerous in Gentile believers than Jewish.

Tradition is powerful. And, churchianity is tradition at its most powerful expression. Tradition is bondage. While it gives people a sense of commonality and familiarity, it also keeps them from seeing the bigger picture and being responsive to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Now, is it more important to "look and feel" Christian, and thus, follow the crowd, and try to do some incremental renovations of churchianity? Or, is it more important to do what Jesus called us to do, and help the poor and make disciples?

We will always have a tendency to think we are wrong if we call the Church something other than what 99.9% of "churchians" are calling "church". It is intimidating to live differently than everything we are familiar with. That is why missionaries have always been few and different (although "traditional" missionary concepts are as wrong as churchianity is ... because "traditional missionary concepts" are the product of churchianity!!!).

My challenge is moving more and more toward a focus upon individual disciples who will live radically sold out for Jesus, instead of worrying about the "gatherings". It is far more possible for a person to live for Jesus as a true disciple (who lives a lifestyle of worship and total obedience daily) and NOT have regular gatherings with other disciples, than it is to be a half-way disciple while attending "church" every Sunday! Did you get that? Do you see that? It is far more probable that a person will please God by being a sold-out disciple who walks humbly before God moment by moment (yet never "goes to church") than it is that a person can please God by "going to church" every Sunday and living more like the world than like Jesus, although having a zeal. In fact, most Christians think that if they have a bumper sticker on their car, and put their Bible on their desk at work, and occasionally lead some poor soul through the Four trivialized Spiritual "Laws", that they are disciples. Especially if they go to church, sing in the choir, put their tithes into the "storehouse" (NOT EVEN!) and are so busy that their kids never see Jesus in them! But, they are "doing something for Jesus".

Jesus didn't ask us to "do something FOR Him", He commanded us to FOLLOW Him (in word, thought and deed) and to do HIS works! Now, where is "working in the system" in HIS will? :-)

Which is precisely the point I was trying to make. Contributions to Jesus instead of commitment. Faith is NOT a work of man, it is a work of God ... BUT Faith works and results in righteousness and obedience, because it IS from God! It is impossible to manifest FAITH by worldliness and carnality and materialism and hedonism, for these things are not of God.

The foundations have not been established. A person cannot be a disciple maker until first he (or she) is a disciple. And, being a disciple has nothing to do with being a church worker or member or participant. LISTEN to this point carefully ... being a disciple is not even primarily about being a disciple-maker or evangelist! (WHAT?) Being a disciple means following Jesus and doing His works. How can we teach others to help the poor and be a disciple until first we are a disciple and help the poor? How can we teach others to live a lifestyle of worship, walking in the presence of God all day long, until we first are walking in the presence of God all day long? How can we teach others to be responsible to get their daily feeding from the Word (instead of listening to someone else's hash called "sermons") until we have gotten into the lifestyle of feasting upon God's Word daily. How can we tell someone else to hunger and thirst after righteousness until we live hungry and thirsty for righteousness, and are more concerned with entering into the Kingdom of God (right now in our daily living) than we are concerned with the opinions and objectives of society around us?

I'm more concerned with building disciples who are totally dependent upon Jesus Christ, and are totally surrendered to His Lordship than I am concerned with whether they ever go to a "regular" gathering of believers. I believe that a Spirit-led disciple will be led to times of fellowship and encouragement with other believers ... from house to house. In fact, the very act of making disciples will put them into those gatherings for fellowship and encouragement and worship. But, FIRST, we have to learn to worship the Lord all day long, 24/7. FIRST, we have to be so hungry that we will be in the Word daily, seeking to be more like Jesus and to know the voice of the Holy Spirit.

Worship is NOT primarily these choreographed goosebump-making sessions where people get together and try to PUMP ME UP!!!! Mercy, if that is worship, then Arnold Schwartzenneger (sp?) is a real worshipper, because he knows how to pump people up! eh? How can we acknowledge the majesty and awesomeness of God through flesh-promoting emotionalism and jump and shout based upon near-nightclub types of musicianship? Or, how can we acknowledge the majesty and awesomeness of God with our nose stuck in a hymn book or liturgical program? And, how can one hour per week experience of "worship" have any impact upon being a disciple if we have not learned to walk in the presence of God daily?

And, just when do we plan on beginning to walk in the presence of God moment by moment? Well, most people don't plan to. Most Christians just like to talk about it and read books about it and "intend" to get around to it! After all, when 99.9% of the people they know who call themselves Christians are able to claim to be the real thing without ever being personally responsible for their own feeding in the Word; and without ever manifesting a hunger and thirst for righteousness; and with more interest in worldly emotionalism in place of obedience and adoration of God; then, why can't ALL of us get away with that, eh? Isn't that really the bottom line? If we stay in the "system", then we can "dumb down" discipleship, and get by like all the rest! After all, if the rest of the group doesn't see anything that important in what we are seeing about discipleship, then we can probably slide, too, eh? We'll just do a couple of things a little more committed than the rest, and we'll be satisfied with our questions about the rightness of "church buildings" and tithes spent upon our own little holy club, and putting responsibility upon a pastor instead of seeking the Kingdom of God for ourself. YES?

Let's just cut right to the chase ...

We really don't want to be different from the people around us, do we?

If all our neighbors have life insurance and own a home and have all the luxuries, we should too, shouldn't we?

If all the "Christians" in the system can get by with a little dab of grace and a lot of church work, then why should we bother with seeking to enter the Kingdom of God and His righteousness! RIGHT?

Isn't that what is really driving us to want to try to stay in "the system" (churchianity)?

There have been literally hundreds of readers of the Challengers over the last 3 years who have been contented with READING radical writings! (Radical from the churchianity perspective.) BUT, most have not hungered and thirsted sufficiently for righteousness to DO the Word. They think because 99.9% of Christians appear to be getting by that God is not going to require them to have DONE the things that the Holy Spirit spoke to their heart as they read the Challenger.

There are people who have read the Challenger for more than a year and still use the title "Reverend". Who is to be reverred besides God? What about what Jesus said about titles that elevate and separate? Matthew 23.8-12 BUT, tradition and the system must be more correct than the plain teaching of Scriptures for these brothers and sisters, for they procede to call themselves by titles that elevate them over others, rather than to change their attitude and perspective and be servants. These brothers and sisters do not have to answer to me, but they will have to answer to God. How can someone claim to be teaching Jesus' Gospel when they cannot even be obedient in this "small", plain point?

There is only one manifestation which proves we have received by faith ... we must obey. The longer we resist and postpone, the more hardened our heart becomes and the more carnal we become and the more deceived we are.

I'm not interested in feeding a person who is corrupting the Gospel and the Word with worldliness and tradition. And, I will not knowingly continue a relationship of that sort after sufficient time has passed for a person to either fish or quit playing with the bait. Most Christians are playing with the bait. I'm not going to feed the Truth to people, just to make them "feel good" because they are "tolerant" or mentally assenting to the radical message of Jesus Christ, but they want to keep playing around in their spiritual sandboxes. When I have someone on the list for a long period of time and I begin to understand that they are just playing around at discipleship, I'll usually take them off the list quietly.

This isn't a game. And, it is quickly going to become a very difficult situation for disciples of Jesus in the public arena. Persecution is coming, and quicker than we think it is. And, therefore, it is necessary that we equip disciples to stand up in Christ and grow up in Christ and not be dependent upon the corruption of churchianity, for churchianity is going to become a tool of society and an enemy of God. Churchianity will become a tool of the persecution of those who are obedient and loyal to God alone.

Get connected to the Head. Whatever you see in Scriptures that the "group" is supposed to do, you are personally responsible to do it yourself, by the leading and empowerment of the Holy Spirit. Kick the crutches out quickly, for if you hang on to them, they will not be able to help you in the day of difficulty. Do you love Jesus with all your heart? Really? Be careful, for even Peter had to be asked three times if he loved Jesus. Do you love Him enough to obey Him?
The bondage of churchianity

The churchianity trap! I remember when I received an e-mail a couple of years ago in which the brother referred to the limitations and bondage of churchianity. It both rang true and it also offended the remnants of churchianity that were left in me. But, the more I thought it over, the more I realized it is true.

Yesterday I received an e-mail from a long-time subsciber who described the pressures that the "church people" where they attend keep attempting to put upon them.

This sister is back in college, as the parent of a teenager even, and is really involved in ministry. She is able to build relationships with college students that lead to real discussions about God and His will. It is real, biblical ministry.

But, the church people think they should have their lives wrapped up in the church activities .. all held at the "church" building!!! They are concerned about HER spirituality! Not concerned enough to visit her home and get to know her, but they are concerned enough to pray for her and talk about her and attempt to counsel her to get more in tune with what they are doing! Are you following this?

Do you see where the limitations are? When the activities of the institution prevent us from doing Jesus's works in the community and marketplace, then we are caught in a trap that Jesus never intended. Perhaps it is time to change gears. But, as many will say: "If not this, what?"
If not this, what?

About changing gears (getting out of the churchianity trap) and doing biblical ministry:

You might consider moving toward this kind of model ... in your conversations with those God puts in your pathway each day, some will show an interest in learning more. Invite them to your home for Bible study. Make sure that you are purposeful in this. When they come to the house, have the TV and stereo off, and have your Bible right with you. Have your wife sit down with you, with her Bible too. You might share coffee or a soft drink. Have a Bible reading already planned.

One thing that is certain. People need to learn who Jesus is, not who Americans have made Him into. Thus, taking people through intensive readings of just the words of Jesus (a red letter edition is most useful for this) should be a priority. Try to help people get the bigger picture from reading through ALL Jesus said first, as quickly as possible, before attempting to deal with specifics.

Anyway, build these Bible studies. When you are consistently having at least one per week, then you are fully in the discipling process. Then start seeking to do ministry to the poor in a way that God shows you. And, start taking those you are discipling with you as you go to minister to the poor. Stay focused upon building relationships rather than preaching to anyone.

As quickly as you have this kind of lifestyle established, you will probably find that you have no further use for participating in churchianity. Your goal will be to make disciples who will themselves make disciples. Once in a while you might end up with a songfest with a few believers. Resist the desire to organize those gatherings and make them a regularly scheduled event. But, when you have one of those meetings, you can encourage the sharing of Communion, encouraging different ones to read the Scripture portions which apply and one to serve the bread, and another to serve the wine (or grape juice). In other words, this keeps the emphasis off of any need for a special leader to lead, which would make it a nice, gnostic ritual, eh? (Gnostic in the sense that one person seems to have the "secret" of breaking the bread and serving the wine.)

Do you see the shift in emphasis.... instead of developing a ministry focused upon preaching, you want to focus upon teaching the Scriptures one on one, making disciples. You won't want to overmax yourself by trying to disciple 10 people at a time, nor even 5. Perhaps 2 or 3 at the most. You need to pour your life into these disciples, and expect that within 6 months to a year they will be doing the same thing you are doing! Soon after they bear witness to being born of the Spirit and sold out to Jesus, you should make clear these expectations: weekly discipling times, ministering to the poor, and equipping them with the expectation they will do the same within a year.

Which is more obedient to Jesus: to make 1000 church workers per year? or, to disciple one person in-depth per year? So, then, what does that tell you about your path and choices? Do you want to follow the crowd, or follow Jesus?
Colored Glasses

If you want to be disciplers of the nations, you have to build relationships with individuals and start discipling them. God is not blessing mass "ministry" efforts. The "evidence" of God's hand upon mass, famous efforts to "win the world for Jesus" is usually a bunch of carnal standards like numbers and quantity and finances. Interestingly enough, I can't find much of that in Jesus' ministry. In fact, He was homeless and penniless. He had to catch a fish to pay the taxes. He had no office, nor meeting building, although He did own, by virtue of creation, the natural amphitheater on the hillside where he taught and fed the 5000! He had no friends of political power and did not seek out the rich and famous to help Him attract a crowd.

If you are really sick of churchianity, and if you are truly serious about being a disciple of Jesus (rather than being a church worker and pew warmer) then God is going to upend your life. You will have to trash every concept of church and ministry that you have heard and seen all your life. That is, if you are serious.

You see, if you put orange kool-aid through a cherry filter, then it is no longer orange kool-aid, it is cherry-orange. And, put the Message and teachings of Jesus through a filter of contemporary culture (materialism, pleasure, comfort, fame, "success"), then it is no longer the Gospel and it is no longer His Church.

When Jesus said that new wine (the Holy Spirit) cannot be put into old wineskins, He was not referring just to the Jewish religion, or the Law. He was referring to ALL religiosity and religious traditions. Forms, rituals, and things which puff men and shut out the Holy Spirit.

Hang on ... ministry is not a job (employment). Ministry is not organizational. Ministry is not anything which looks like a contemporary corporation or country club or a rock concert or a TV show!!! Ministry does not make one famous or popular. Ministry is sacrificial service to God, through the leading and empowerment of the Holy Spirit, almost always in a one-to-one basis.

Going "radical" and following Jesus in word, thought and deed is going to make you a UFO to "Christians" in a materialistic world. It can be extremely lonely if one is not willing to find total satisfaction in Jesus.

The tendencies to start forming another "church" is one of the primary sins that besets radical Christian neophytes. First, it is elect officers and a "pastor". Then, it is the search for a building. Then the programs. The rut started the moment that the gatherings started to imitate our comfortable social forms rather than staying focused upon the leading of the Holy Spirit. Pastors and teachers and evangelists and prophets and apostles do their equipping ministry without ever having any claim to the "members" or to any "authority". The authority resides totally within the Word and the Spirit, and the equipping ministers are never to build a following, but are to build followers of Christ who do Jesus' works, not inside a building for their comfort, but in the neighborhood and marketplace. Making disciples means making DISCIPLERS! If we make disciples for Jesus, we will be making disciples who do what we do. Which forces us to continually ask: am I doing what Jesus did and what He calls me to do, or am I building a nest for myself?

I apologize. You intended to ask me questions and direct the lessons to where you "are", and I just took off and started addressing the issues that the Spirit is speaking about. Well, I guess I don't apologize, then. I'm really not much good at discussing various opinions and empathizing with how people "feel" about their "faith" and concerns. I am almost driven of the Spirit to speak the only message of deliverance that is effectual: we must repent of pursuing a contemporary Gospel, and surrender to what Jesus taught and did. We must BE the Church and stop playing Church. And, what is the Church? Is a Moslem who has been born of the Spirit in a nation where he can die for admitting he is a Christian ... if he cannot "go to church", is he still part of the Church? Even if he is never publicly baptized or never partakes in Communion at the hands of an "ordained" "clergyman"? Is a frontline missionary who has no converts for 20 years, and thus, no congregation to "assemble" with ... is HE still part of the Church? Are that missionary, and that Moslem convert BEING the Church? How? Is it possible that God desires a lifestyle of worship rather than a bunch of carnal musicianship once a week for a bunch of sheep-goats that have to be entertained in order to manifest some "worship" in a temple of comfort? Is it possible that walking in the Spirit daily, and reaching out to be Jesus to the poor and the lost is BEING the Church? If so, then why do we waste another SECOND of God's gift of time fooling around in the mess of churchianity which keeps people in bondage, away from BEING the Church?

Who SAID that Hebrews 10.25 applies to meetings held in a special building under the oversight of an "ordained clergyman"? Who said so? Let's look at verses 24 & 25: "And let us consider how we may SPUR one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another -- and all the more as you see the Day approaching."

I had one of these meetings today, by telephone. I spoke at length with a brother via phone this morning, encouraging him to move ahead with his call to disciple homeless people. There is no necessary application in Hebrews 10 which says that these "meetings" only happen at 10AM on Sunday where we stand up at the right time, sit down at the right time, and listen to a lot of preachification .. which "church people" think takes the place of serious personal study of the Scriptures daily, and walking in the Spirit, staying focused upon His step by step leading.

I have Hebrew 10.24,25 meetings almost daily via e-mail on the Internet. I regularly meet with people and encourage them to break free and follow Jesus.

Enough about me and my activities. I just needed some real life examples, and mine are the ones I know best.

I must say that I am not in the least bit interested in doing what is popular or traditional. I am only interested in doing what is Right in God's sight. I want to please God. That won't win any popularity contests and won't make me "successful" by the world's standards anymore than Jesus was popular or successful. Oh, you say, He was popular with the common man. Yes, until they realized He was going to be crucified. Then, the crowds left Him. In fact, when He refuted the popular Jewish theology of the day (known as Deuteronomic theology: the theology of prosperity and perfect health in Dt 28) ... when He REFUTED that theology, many of the crowd of disciples left Him. Even His own disciples of the "inner circle" said: "Who then can possibly enter into the Kingdom of God?"

Jesus calls us ... Jesus CONFRONTS us and challenges us to reject the popular concepts of the world and religion, and to do the things that will never make us friends with the world or religious "authorities". In fact, there is such a strong concept of what Christianity is in the USA that "ordinary Christians" will be totally uncomfortable around us. What is there first question? "What church do you attend". If you don't answer with one of the usual groups, then you are suddenly suspect, at best.

Instead of being political activists, He calls us to go to the poor and disenfranchised and proclaim to them the Gospel and make disciples. Instead of politically attempting to influence society, Jesus came and demonstrated that society can only change by the changing of HEARTS, one by one, through the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. Instead of opposing the popular sins of that day through political action and demonstrations (whatever the equivalent of abortion was then), Jesus taught His disciples to call for repentance, person to person.

Instead of making His message popular and palatable to carnal man, Jesus started with a confrontational, judgemental demand: REPENT! If it was good enough for Jesus, why was it changed to four trivial little sales points that appeal the the "felt needs" of people who are "really not bad people, they just need Jesus"?

Why isn't this understanding of discipleship and BEING the Church ever going to become "popular"? Well, it totally upends all of contemporary Christianity in a materialistic society. It would put pastors out of jobs. It would end popular concepts of missionary work. It would result in a lot of empty buildings, because people would be meeting from house to house and occasionally in rented halls, and their focus would be first and foremost upon reaching out to the poor and the lost, rather than on their "church work" and "church programs" and "church socials". It would end the "businesses" that claim to be doing God's work: music companies, church furniture manufacturers, church costume (vestments, etc) manufacturers, book publishers pumping out a constant stream of "poor me until I met my genie Jesus" junk, T-shirt printers, conferences which give jobs to "men of faith and power", etc, etc. See the problem? Furthermore, this understanding of the Church and discipleship puts personal responsibility upon every saint, instead of the sheep-goats projecting responsibility for their spiritual health and "faith" upon a man who has usurped Christ's authority! It would mean WORK outside our comfort zones, requiring total dependency upon the Spirit, instead of perpetual emotional tittilation in the spiritual sandboxes we call "churches"! And, OH NO! If we really accepted this understanding of discipleship and the Church, it would end the financial support for televangelists! (GLORY HALLELUJAH!)

But, then, we must each one ask ourselves if we really are more interested in following Jesus than being acceptable to the crowd. It does not make any difference whether anyone else joins us on this journey or not, if we are "sold out" totally to Jesus, and have put to death our sinful nature and worldly values. We make the journey because it is the only pathway possible for us to take and know that we are in the center of God's will.

Billygoat

Interestingly enough, those JayDubs who embrace another religion after they leave the WTBTS or are shunned, their number one bondage of choice is the Muslim religion. After that, the Jewish religion. Then the Mormons. Among Americans, the Mormons are the most popular next religion. A step way up, since the Mormons tend to be upbeat people.

Of those people in mental institutions who stated a religious preferance, JayDubs are Numero Uno. I wonder why.

THAT NATE GUY

I would love to know the source of where you get your "facts". They are facts, right? You state them as so.

DanTheMan

I can understand how somebody could leave JW's and become a "private Christian" - where they acknowledge that their faith is, for the most part, a personal philosophy of life that they find satisfying.

But for people to leave JW's and become full-on organization-Christians in denominations where most of the emphasis is on endless moralizing and on being saved from God's adverse judgement, yeah, you have to wonder if they've really changed.

gumby

Interestingly enough, those JayDubs who embrace another religion after they leave the WTBTS or are shunned, their number one bondage of choice is the Muslim religion

That's funny. I've been on this board for over 4 years and haven't met one Muslim yet.

*scratches head*

Gumby

poppers

It seems that most people need to replace one set of beliefs with another when they can no longer continue with what they had. How sad this is when you think about it, but it is understandable. The root of this dynamic rests in the unquestioned acceptance in the belief in the "me" who would hold or reject any belief. People identify with the "me" entity, and a large part of that identity rests on the religious affiliation that has been accepted. Because so much of personal identity revolves around religious ideas, it becomes a wrenching experience to question, switch, or drop such ideas. Afterall, they reason, "who will I be without my beliefs? Better have a belief of some sort so I know who I am."

And that is the challenge, to find out what you really are when there are no beliefs held about anything, especially those concerning god. Since it seems to be "my" life, it would be logical to find out who this "me" is, who this "me" is that seems to relate to "others" and to "god". But, how many people even consider this question - it seems too ludicrous to even think about. And why is this so? Because there is a heavy investment in believing in the "me" entity; because the one who would question that belief puts its very existence on the chopping block.

The greatest fear is to discover that "I" don't really exist as a separate and distinct entity, and so, to maintain the illusion of existence, the "me entity" continually adds to or alters a "belief matrix" that it has created for itself. All beliefs do is alter the experience of "what is" - they obscure reality. But humans, for the most part, are not interested in reality, they are actually more interested in mind created beliefs about reality because those beliefs keep the illusory "me" alive.

Abaddon

Been through that and out the other side.

I knew other Christian religions didn't do it "properly" either. I scoffed at people mixing and matching beliefs, both from within Christianity and from non-Christian religions too.

It took the best part of a decade to realise anyone who claims they can define the 'proper' way to be a Christian is just being silly, as all it is is an opinion. ANy such assertion is not based on facts.

Therefore to look down on people not being Christian 'properly' was absurd, as it's impossible for anyone to define what properly is, unless they are a little self-deceptive.

Trying to shoe-horn god into ONE set of interpretations of ONE book is really making god in the image we want it to be. Far better is to figure out what god might be if there is one.

Thus anyone's professions of faith are as good as another person's ,and just as liable to be right (or more likely that there is a rather broad definiton of right) UNLESS they insist they are absolutely right, in which case they are automatically wrong.

Thus (for example) what some would see as a half-hearted virtually humanistic version of Roman Catholicism as practised by my girlfriend and her family is as valid as that of the Pope, and as genuine a striving to understand as an animist.

I don't bolt on an unprovable entity to my beliefs, but other than that am as likely to be right or wrong as the next idiot.

Thus

mouthy

Faith is blind though, right?

gumby

Hey granny......ya little contancourous spitfire. Have I told ya how cute you are when ya get all riled up?

Gumby

mouthy

OOps that got away from me> Wrong!!!! Faith is not blind for me... I was a JW ( GOOD ONE followed the "sheperds" faithfully until they kicked me out.) I dont attend a Church! But I believe in a Creator because I am NOT blind -the trees, flowers, babies, birds, etc All make me be assured they were Created.....Then because I feel that the only way I can understand who that Creator was/isreading scriptures help me to KNOW who Created it all JESUS!!!!!. I believe in my heart that it ( Bible)gives direction, So instread of being blind- I can say "I see" I dont know everything- but I know since when they kicked me out of the JWs I was drowning( in a sense) & I heard that the Savior was Jesus -I didnt KNOW him-- but just as if I was really drowning I wouldnt ask the bloke that saved me his credentials -I would just hang on for my life ---I did -Thank God I did because I LOVE being a follower of Christ - therefore I call my self a Christian....

I'm not buying it! That people left the Witnesses and became Christians.

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