I'm not buying it! That people left the Witnesses and became Christians.

by free2beme 75 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  GentlyFeral

  free2beme,

  So honestly, if you want to rejoin another religion of Christianity that you know has wrong in it and some right. Why not just be a Witnesses again? Less effort needed, and you already know the basics.

  "Less effort needed" is not quite right. Everyone deserves to have company while they figure out how to live an honest, meaningful life. High control groups like the JW's penalize dissent much more than other churches do.

  You can be a Catholic and say the Inquisition should never have used torture, and not get any argument from fellow-believers or your parish priest.

  But can you be a Jehovah's Witness and say, "Either the Watchtower should never have become a United Nations NGO, or they should have publicly apologized for condemning the UN," and not find yourself facing a judicial committee?

  If you spend hours helping a "worldly" beggar find a home and a job, most churches would applaud you for it and offer to help. Can you say the same of the JW's?

  I left, not because the JW's had "less right" in them than other churches; I left because the JW's penalized me for doing what I knew to be right. The culture cold-shouldered anyone who made a serious attempt to live by the Golden Rule.

  gentlyferal
• 

  jgnat

  As others have said, free2beme, other churches don't expel you for disagreeing with them. Other churches don't instruct their members to avoid family and friends who have not joined yet. My pastor taught me that all instruction must be tested against the "fruit of the spirit". If we think the bible is telling us to do something unkind or cruel, we've got the instruction wrong. I've never felt, when I am part of a church, that I couldn't think independently. A visit to the kingdom hall, on the other hand, is stiff and confining.

  Wonky past? Yes! Every organization has one. Some have very noble beginnings, and slide in to mediocrity later. Here are two groups I believe had amazing beginnings:

  William Booth's vision of the lost, founder of the Salvation Army http://www.rapha.org/Resources/vision1.htm

  The Fransicans http://www.franciscanfriars.com/RMH/bio.htm

  But it's a wholly different thing to admit to wonky origins than to claim divine origins and design. The Watchtower society claims they are the only group that got it right. They deny or hide the errors and excesses of their past. They expel dissenters. Why, after all you went through, free2beme, would you take the Watchtower's word for it when it comes to Christendom's Churches? Like everything else, the Watchtower's words are laced with false assumptions and bad reasoning.

  I totally understand ex-JW's who are so ruined by the JW experience that they would never darken the door of another church again. But I can say with all sincerity, having not been abused by my church, that it can be a warm and welcoming community. There are few societies you can join these days where you can get to share your innermost you with an intimate group and have them support and encourage you through your troubles.

  I see you sidestepped my question. Do you think I am living an irrational life? If not, perhaps you can buy in to an alternative exit for some JW's who chew on the meat of Christianity and spit out the bones.
• 

  free2beme

  As others have said, free2beme, other churches don't expel you for disagreeing with them.

  
  Normally I would agree with you, but that is not the case. I have a couple of friends who belonged to churches they were expelled from.

  Do you think I am living an irrational life?

  I think, and this is my thoughts not some group thing, just like to make that clear. That when someone goes from one form of Christianity, to another and puts down the other Christian religion and fails to see the same problem in all Christianity, with the same thinking as they put upon the former. Yes, that seems irrational to me. Now, in that same thought, I don't know your or your history. Maybe you were a Christian before you were a Witness and went back to a comfortable level for yourself that was less extreme, I do not know and I admit that. Yet, if you were a friend of mine or a relative and said, "I left the Witnesses and I am studying with Mormons now or attending Catholic mass." I would probably be very vocal in my thoughts on the idea. I would be thinking, "... did you never learn?" After all, I was a Witness for my entire childhood and early adult life. I saw what all Christianity, outside the Witnesses were like and exposed. When I realized the Witness were no better, I realized the problem was not with what form of Christianity you followed. Rather the problem was Christianity as an organized religion. Stressing for the reader my last part, "as an organized religion." The thoughts on "love thy neighbor", "be kind to others" and moral codes that leads to good mental and physical health ... good stuff! Not exclusive to Christianity though. It is everything else though, the judgement, the "we know best" attitude, and the "we are the true religion (Christianity in many forms) thinking," and the "see others problems, but ignore our own" way of life. These are the reasons I answer and feel the way I do.

  To be clear, when I think rational, I think this "Having or exercising the ability to reason." So what I am stating is my reason for the matter and if your reason does not agree with mine or I sense in a person a lacking in reasoning on a similar thought that seems open and obvious. I am prone to state that I do not see a rational thought base and those irrational. Basically, I am stubborn on this issue.
• 

  Dawn

  free2beme - One of the major snares of the JW religion (and many other religions) is that they fail to recognize that the "church" does not reside in one denomination. In reading the Bible it has become very clear to me now that the "church" that Jesus was starting was outside of the man-made religious setting. It includes people of all faiths that are willing to put aside their differences on minor issues to recognize that what really matters is a personal relationship with Jesus, to accept him as their savior and believe that it is only HE that we are to follow.

  There are many churches today that do recognize this - and that is why you will find different "christian denominations" joining together to accomplish major goals. For example, a number of churches in our area (I believe 40+) have joined together to perform charitable functions in our community such as building homes for Habitat for Humanity, doing yard work for the elderly, gathering donations for the needy, etc. Each denomination has it's own interpretation of many doctrines - yet they recognize that it is not so important that everyone agree on every single doctrine as it is important that they come together to be "salt and light" - to be, in reality, the "body of christ" - that is, a body that is accomplishing what he himself did by example.

  I find it interesting that you mention only Catholic and Mormon in your initial statement as other possible christian churches - being that both of these religions paralell two major JW's beliefs - (1) that we are saved by works, and (2) that they are the ONLY true religion with the ONLY correct interpretation of biblical doctrines. These are two major beliefs that set them apart from many other christian denominations.

  Church is simply a place to meet with other people who share similar beliefs. A place to join together to accomplish good in the community. It is NOT the "religion" - religion is between you and God. It is up to each individual to read their bible and decide for themselves through prayer what they believe.

  In the end - does it really matter if there is a hell or eternal death? Does it matter if we die and go instantly to heaven, or go to non-existence until the resurrection? Does it matter if only 144,000 go to heaven and the rest live on earth - or we ALL go to heaven? Does ANY of these doctrines matter if a person does not understand the basic, most foundational piece - that it is Jesus alone who we are to follow and it is only by believing in him and having faith in him that we are saved?
• 

  Dawn

  Just to give you a little background on me - I was also raised a JW and was DF'd (the second and final time) in my mid 20's. For 14 years after that I wanted absolutely NOTHING to do with religion. I wasn't sure if there really was a God - and could probably be classified as an agnostic.

  When an old aquaintance of mine passed away I went to her memorial service and was intrigued by some of the things the pastor said - some very different views from what I believed "christianity" to be. So in curiosity I decided to pick up my bible again and start reading to see if he was right. To make a long story short - for the past 5 years now I have been a "christian". I regularly attend a church that I feel has the right focus - to do good for the community and to help others. I also attend other churches from time to time because I like to hear different opinions on doctrines and beliefs - I like to keep an open mind and consider the possibilities. I tend to be very logical and scientific in my reasoning - I believe in evolution (shocker hu!), there is much evidence to support it. But I also believe it was God who created "life" - and it has evolved according to a divine plan. I don't know about the trinity - still considering those options. I don't know if I believe in hell either - but I don't think that's really important. I DO believe that we are saved by faith alone - and I believe that people who truly have faith and have accepted Jesus as their savior will demonstrate that through their works (cause and effect), but it is not those "works" that save them - it is their faith.

  So, as you can see, I did not jump from one "religion" to another. It has been through much consideration and research that I have made the choice.
• 

  ozziepost

  What does joining another faith make a person Christian? One faith does not mean "denomination". It means putting faith in and trusting Jesus as Savior and Lord. The WTBTS twists denomination and faith into meaning the same thing.

  Exactly! There's actually a world of difference between a person claiming to be a being "christian' as against yourself "catholic" or "baptist" or "episcopalian". The thing is, being a Dub is a religion for it certainly isn't christian! Unfortunately some are still looking through Watchtower eyes - but one day they may see the difference! We live in hope.
• 

  jgnat

  I am concerned about a couple of things, free2beme. First of all, you did not pay attention to my own history which I posted to this thread before I asked you my question. Second, you assume that the education you received from the Witnesses on other churches was accurate. You made a huge leap of logic to assume any person who switches from one Christian church to another is irrational. You have not checked your own foundational beliefs. I feel I must keep on this subject because we cannot assume for others that their choices are irrational or somehow wrong, just because they did not exit the same way.

  Very few churches expel. What denominations were your friends involved with?

  This is how I described myself on this thread:

  How about me? I'm a regular Christian married to a JW. I've researched the JW beliefs and discarded them.

  So in truth, I've never discarded my religion, I never left. I was never a JW. I've tolerated enough talks in the Kingdom Hall, however, to understand the Watchtower Society's stand on other religions. Do you still consider my choice irrational?
• 

  free2beme

  I am concerned about a couple of things, free2beme. First of all, you did not pay attention to my own history which I posted to this thread before I asked you my question. Second, you assume that the education you received from the Witnesses on other churches was accurate. You made a huge leap of logic to assume any person who switches from one Christian church to another is irrational. You have not checked your own foundational beliefs. I feel I must keep on this subject because we cannot assume for others that their choices are irrational or somehow wrong, just because they did not exit the same way.

  jgnat,

  I hate to have to give a slap to reality here, but sometimes people need it. I want to make this clear, and I will never repeat it to you again.

  I do not know you, I do not remember everything you write and take notes on your life, I have a very real life away from this board and come here to discuss thoughts in a more general fashion and less personal, I do this as I feel personal direct discussions are better left to private e-mails, I have been around Witnesses most my life and feel I know a great deal about them and other Christian religion, I will not post links, quotes and other things to show this off as I find such post pretentious and annoying. So if you think I am going to take time to come to this board to get into a direction discussion with yourself that involves quoting the past and each thread that may have happened days, weeks or months ago, your sadly mistaken. I have to deal with no less then a 100 problems a day at work, have a spouse a child and several other items that do need to be tracked and I come here to do general discussion and have a good time. If my comments of not wanting to get into a flame war, make you see me as weak or unwilling to fight for my feelings and make you feel like you won in someone. Glad it made you feel good today. As any debate that goes negative is not worth anything and better to make it clear in the beginning that my thoughts are not personal or directed enough to go there.

  I addressed your comments in a general fashion on the previous post, as I stated, and that is how I feel. I know I am right, and I am not going to go person for person reading all their history to decide if they individual case is different. I cxonsider such connections to people as energy vampires who draw to much of your energy away from what really is important (family) I have spent enough time doing that in small case studies to see where those lead, and in the end, I come to the same conclusion. If you find my thoughts arrogant, then you are seeing them wrong. I am not saying I am better then you, I am saying, "I am not speaking directly to you in this thread" and asking that you stop taking it so defensive that you would think that out of the thousands of people that post on this board. That I would single you out, a person I do not know, and find inspiration in saying something that bothers you. Any more so then I would expect someone to do this to me, nor would I even read enough of the threads on this board to notice. There are hundreds and I come here about 15 minutes a day, generally after I check my e-mails. So please, no games ... no personal attack on you ... and please do not assume I even know you enough to take what I say personal.

  If you want a general discussion, post general comments to me. I can not promise I will address them all, as I do not have enough time to get that drawn in to eveyrthing and my lack of discussion might be because of just not seeing the need to carrying on the thought line or maybe even a simply not having enough time.

  I should just copy and paste this for other boards. I have seen this happen before.
• 

  Sam the Man

  Nice post Free2beme. I'm not buying it either.
• 

  alaskagirl

  Im sorry. You seem to be confusing religion with Christianity. Rutherford was right about one thing - religion (every single one of them) is a racket. It is possible you know to have a real relationship with God on your own without some organization telling you how to do it.