Dont be so hard on satan

by gringojj 67 Replies latest jw friends

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  gringojj

  Now if you fancy a satan inspired pagan priest to tie you to an alter plunge a knife into your chest and collect your blood into a bucket to pour it out as an offering to the demons then you can claim that satan is an innocent harmless individual. Millions of humans were murdered in that way in the past.

  Greendawn when were millions of people killed in this fashion?

  You believe in a satan that is the root of all evil, but you give no evidence that shows he is worse than the god of the bible who has repeatedly murdered and tortured people according to the bible. Organized religion has been the foundation for countless wars and atrocities throughout history. Far more of these things have by god and in the name of god than satan. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the bible is all a scam by satan to make people worship him, posing as god, rather than the true god? After all satan is very powerful.
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  greendawn

  Gringojj I have no reason to doubt the biblical set up of the universal fight between the forces of God representing light and the forces of Satan representing darkness, as apparently you do. For this what goes on in the invisible realm I have no extra biblical sources to rely on, to me it is faith.
  
  Surely religions have caused many terrible destructive wars throughout history in the name of God but that doesn't mean that God was really behind them. If the nations really accepted the gospel and applied it in their lives there would be no wars or anything oppressive: love your neighbour as yourself, don't do to others what you hate if done to you.
  
  Human sacrifices were common in the ancient world everywhere, Europe, the Near East, China, India, the Americas back in those days slaves and prisoners were thought of as animals and they could be sacrificed like them to the gods. The global sum total could easily amount to millions. In India they still manage to burn 30 or 40 widows with their dead husbands each year according to an ancient religious habit though it is today an illegal practice.
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  Narkissos

  Human sacrifices were common in the ancient world everywhere, Europe, the Near East, China, India, the Americas back in those days slaves and prisoners were thought of as animals and they could be sacrificed like them to the gods. The global sum total could easily amount to millions. In India they still manage to burn 30 or 40 widows with their dead husbands each year according to an ancient religious habit though it is today an illegal practice.

  Sources? Figures? Do "they" burn widows in India or do some widows willfully throw themselves into the funeral fire?

  Did you notice that in Ezekiel 20:25f the sacrifice of the firstborn is presented as an order by Yhwh?

  Moreover I gave them statutes that were not good and ordinances by which they could not live. I defiled them through their very gifts, in their offering up all their firstborn, in order that I might horrify them, so that they might know that I am the LORD.

  Like it or not, human sacrifice (although on a very limited scale) was part of the Israelite religion in some periods and contexts, just as in nearby cultures.

  And I am amazed at the way you justify the elimination of entire peoples (= genocide), as Deuteronomistic history would have us believe, by the fact that those peoples would practice human sacrifice.
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  gringojj

  Now if you fancy a satan inspired pagan priest to tie you to an alter plunge a knife into your chest and collect your blood into a bucket to pour it out as an offering to the demons then you can claim that satan is an innocent harmless individual. Millions of humans were murdered in that way in the past.

  Greendawn you made this statement and I wanted you to tell me when millions of humans were killed in the fashion you have explained. I dont recall ever learning about mass murders done in this fashion.
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  greendawn

  Narkissos, the Jews were never supposed by their mosaic religion to sacrifice humans and were in fact strongly warned about it. When they got infected by the canaanite religion and began burning children alive as sacrifices to demonic gods, Yahweh warned them about dire consequences.
  
  As for the canaanites if what the bible says about their moral corruption is true they were a wound on the body of mankind and they deserved the fate of sodom and gomorra only this time it was humans and not angels that carried out the extermination sentence.
  
  Gringojj, I will have to do some research for references on the numbers of the sacrificed by pagan priests. But even if they are hundreds of thousands and not millions my point doesn't change.
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  gringojj

  Surely religions have caused many terrible destructive wars throughout history in the name of God but that doesn't mean that God was really behind them. If the nations really accepted the gospel and applied it in their lives there would be no wars or anything oppressive: love your neighbour as yourself, don't do to others what you hate if done to you.

  Greendawn you are right it doesnt mean that god was behind them. But given his violent history of murder and torture in the bible how can we know if he isnt? Surely he is capable of these things as he has done much worse. Whenever something good happens, people believe god is behind it, even though he doesnt say so. So when something bad happens, how can we know that god isnt doing it? He may very well be still murdering and torturing people in the same fashion he did during bible times. Who knows, maybe in 3 or 4 thousand years people will find a way to attribute the jewish holocaust to god carrying out some kind of justice. Like I said its nothing he hasnt done before.

  Also it would be very kind to not overinflate your statements in order to make a point if you cannot prove things.
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  Narkissos

  Greendawn,

  the Jews were never supposed by their mosaic religion to sacrifice humans and were in fact strongly warned about it. When they got infected by the canaanite religion and began burning children alive as sacrifices to demonic gods, Yahweh warned them about dire consequences.

  Then what about the Ezekiel text I just quoted? In that text Yhwh asks for human sacrifice -- as a punishment but he asks nevertheless.

  Keep in mind that the "mosaic religion" as you understand it is a Deuteronomistic and post-exilic fabrication according to the vast majority of History and Bible scholars. So is the whole tale of "pure Israel" getting "infected" by Canaanite religion. The so-called "history" you are buying into is ancient propaganda. Ezekiel 20 is a beta version of it, not the final release -- whence the differences.

  As for the canaanites if what the bible says about their moral corruption is true they were a wound on the body of mankind and they deserved the fate of sodom and gomorra only this time it was humans and not angels that carried out the extermination sentence.

  Metaphors of filth and sickness, a classic device of genocide propaganda. Killing is cleaning, cleansing, curing. It is the right thing to do.

  Interestingly the Bible says very little about the so-called Canaanites' "moral corruption," but Bible apologists have filled the blanks.
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  mdb

  Thoughts on Lucifer v. Satan

  The sites you refer to are of the "New age movement" and of cultic origin. "Wisdomworld" is a Theosophical site (The Synthesis of Science, Religion and Philosophy) which is a humanistic view of religion and God - men trying to find truth another way because they want nothing to do with the one true God. If they accept the God of Israel, the creator and sustainer of life, then they cannot live their lives their own way since the way of man is of the flesh, worldly, and opposed to God.

  Another place you get your information is from the LDS (mormons). They are in the same position as the Watchtower Society and do not have the truth. In fact, they are worse off. In the higher ranks, they admit that Satan is the God of the Mormon church and many of their temple rituals mirror those from Freemasonry. I'm sure you're aware of Freemasonry (Masonic Lodge) and what they stand for and do behind closed doors.

  As you said, these are "Thoughts on Lucifer v. Satan", not fact, and come from sources which are not reputable. Sorry, try again.
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  daystar

  As you said, these are "Thoughts on Lucifer v. Satan", not fact, and come from sources which are not reputable. Sorry, try again.

  Then I don't want to see you quoting the Bible, which is generally just as reputable as any source I cited, deal?
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  mdb

  Then I don't want to see you quoting the Bible, which is generally just as reputable as any source I cited, deal?

  If you want to cite your references, that's up to you, but these references in question have no weight with me (and apparently you have no concern for the Bible). You're certainly not going to quit posting your ideas and I am making no deals with you that I should resign from quoting the scriptures. I will proclaim the words of God because despite what you believe, they are truth and point to Jesus Christ who is the only source of life.

  Interestingly, during our conversations thus far, I have yet to quote a single verse even though you accuse me of it (not to say I won't start).