Is Jesus Christ God?

by UnDisfellowshipped 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

Hellrider

Leolaia:
I`m referring to these two:
John 17:6 “I have revealed your name to the men you gave me out of the world.
...and my question is: what does it mean to "reveal someones name" in this ("biblical") context? It can`t mean "revealed Yahwes name", because Jesus never uses this name in the Gospels. It must mean that he revealed his Fathers nature, and plans for mankind. But how? And why this expression "revealed your name"? Could there be something more there? And:
John 17:11 Holy Father, keep them safe in your name that you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one
"In your name that you have given me"...has God given Jesus his own (gods own) name? It looks like that, in the sentence. So, could John have known that the older form of Jesus` name, Yehushua, in its hebrew spelling, would include Gods hebrew name?
heathen

Hellrider --- I suggest you read up on the feast of saturnalia , I think you will learn that the idea of a fat bearded man and trees are very significant , the ceremony was really about the pagan God Mythra . They also celebrated the sun God and the birth of the sun on the winter solstace . very pagan .
I also think that God gave jesus his name in the sense that jesus came in the name of jehovah as the crowds were recorded as saying something like blessed is he that comes in the name of jehovah . John 12:13 .Immanuel was translated by the angel to mean , with us is God .
Narkissos

Hellrider,
Upstream of the Gospel of John, one must notice the Jewish-Christian tradition about "sanctifying/hallowing the name," as reflected both in the Lord's Prayer and the pharisaic-rabbinical Qaddish as we discussed before -- which shows, btw, that such an expression did not involve the actual pronouncing of any name. Also the Hellenistic tradition attested in Philo on the basic namelessness of "God," called "Lord" for all practical purposes.
Downstream, I think Gnostic literature is especially relevant; its main emphasis is on the correlative feature of John 17, i.e. that the Father's name is given to the Son. Whoever has the Name revealed to him/her bears the Name. Here are a few examples from the Nag Hammady library:
Gospel of Philip:
Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon.
One single name is not uttered in the world, the name which the Father gave to the Son; it is the name above all things: the name of the Father. For the Son would not become Father unless he wore the name of the Father. Those who have this name know it, but they do not speak it. But those who do not have it do not know it. But truth brought names into existence in the world for our sakes, because it is not possible to learn it (truth) without these names. Truth is one single thing; it is many things and for our sakes to teach about this one thing in love through many things. The rulers (archons) wanted to deceive man, since they saw that he had a kinship with those that are truly good. They took the name of those that are good and gave it to those that are not good, so that through the names they might deceive him and bind them to those that are not good. And afterward, what a favor they do for them! They make them be removed from those that are not good and place them among those that are good. These things they knew, for they wanted to take the free man and make him a slave to them forever.
"Jesus" is a hidden name, "Christ" is a revealed name. For this reason "Jesus" is not particular to any language; rather he is always called by the name "Jesus". While as for "Christ", in Syriac it is "Messiah", in Greek it is "Christ". Certainly all the others have it according to their own language. "The Nazarene" is he who reveals what is hidden. Christ has everything in himself, whether man, or angel, or mystery, and the Father.
The Gospel of Truth:
And the name of the Father is the Son. It is he who, in the beginning, gave a name to him who came forth from him - he is the same one - and he begat him for a son. He gave him his name which belonged to him - he, the Father, who possesses everything which exists around him. He possess the name; he has the son. It is possible for them to see him. The name, however, is invisible, for it alone is the mystery of the invisible about to come to ears completely filled with it through the Father`s agency. Moreover, as for the Father, his name is not pronounced, but it is revealed through a son. Thus, then, the name is great.
Who, then, has been able to pronounce a name for him, this great name, except him alone to whom the name belongs and the sons of the name in whom the name of the Father is at rest, and who themselves in turn are at rest in his name, since the Father has no beginning? It is he alone who engendered it for himself as a name in the beginning before he had created the Aeons, that the name of the Father should be over their heads as a lord - that is, the real name, which is secure by his authority and by his perfect power. For the name is not drawn from lexicons nor is his name derived from common name-giving, But it is invisible. He gave a name to himself alone, because he alone saw it and because he alone was capable of giving himself a name. For he who does not exist has no name. For what name would one give him who did not exist? Nevertheless, he who exists also with his name and he alone knows it, and to him alone the Father gave a name. The Son is his name. He did not, therefore, keep it secretly hidden, but the son came into existence. He himself gave a name to him. The name, then, is that of the Father, just as the name of the Father is the Son. For otherwise, where would compassion find a name - outside of the Father? But someone will probably say to his companion, "Who would give a name to someone who existed before himself, as if, indeed, children did not receive their name from one of those who gave them birth?"
Above all, then, it is fitting for us to think this point over: What is the name? It is the real name. It is, indeed, the name which came from the Father, for it is he who owns the name. He did not, you see, get the name on loan, as in the case of others because of the form in which each one of them is going to be created. This, then, is the authoritative name. There is no one else to whom he has given it. But it remained unnamed, unuttered, `till the moment when he, who is perfect, pronounced it himself; and it was he alone who was able to pronounce his name and to see it. When it pleased him, then, that his son should be his pronounced name and when he gave this name to him, he who has come from the depth spoke of his secrets, because he knew that the Father was absolute goodness. For this reason, indeed, he sent this particular one in order that he might speak concerning the place and his place of rest from which he had come forth, and that he might glorify the Pleroma, the greatness of his name and the sweetness of his Father.
Each one will speak concerning the place from which he has come forth, and to the region from which he received his essential being, he will hasten to return once again. And he want from that place - the place where he was - because he tasted of that place, as he was nourished and grew. And his own place of rest is his Pleroma. All the emanations from the Father, therefore, are Pleromas, and all his emanations have their roots in the one who caused them all to grow from himself. He appointed a limit. They, then, became manifest individually in order that they might be in their own thought, for that place to which they extend their thoughts is their root, which lifts them upward through all heights to the Father. They reach his head, which is rest for them, and they remain there near to it so that they say that they have participated in his face by means of embraces. But these of this kind were not manifest, because they have not risen above themselves. Neither have they been deprived of the glory of the Father nor have they thought of him as small, nor bitter, nor angry, but as absolutely good, unperturbed, sweet, knowing all the spaces before they came into existence and having no need of instruction. Such are they who possess from above something of this immeasurable greatness, as they strain towards that unique and perfect one who exists there for them. And they do not go down to Hades. They have neither envy nor moaning, nor is death in them. But they rest in him who rests, without wearying themselves or becoming involved in the search for truth. But, they, indeed, are the truth, and the Father is in them, and they are in the Father, since they are perfect, inseparable from him who is truly good. They lack nothing in any way, but they are given rest and are refreshed by the Spirit. And they listen to their root; they have leisure for themselves, they in whom he will find his root, and he will suffer no loss to his soul.
Such is the place of the blessed; this is their place. As for the rest, then, may they know, in their place, that it does not suit me, after having been in the place of rest to say anything more. But he is the one in whom I shall be in order to devote myself, at all times, to the Father of the All and the true brothers, those upon whom the love of the Father is lavished, and in whose midst nothing of him is lacking. It is they who manifest themselves truly since they are in that true and eternal life and speak of the perfect light filled with the seed of the Father, and which is in his heart and in the Pleroma, while his Spirit rejoices in it and glorifies him in whom it was, because the Father is good. And his children are perfect and worthy of his name, because he is the Father. Children of this kind are those whom he loves.
The Thunder, Perfect mind:
I am the silence that is incomprehensible
and the idea whose remembrance is frequent.
I am the voice whose sound is manifold
and the word whose appearance is multiple.
I am the utterance of my name.
Hear me in gentleness, and learn of me in roughness.
I am she who cries out,
and I am cast forth upon the face of the earth.
I prepare the bread and my mind within.
I am the knowledge of my name.
Hear me, you hearers
and learn of my words, you who know me.
I am the hearing that is attainable to everything;
I am the speech that cannot be grasped.
I am the name of the sound
and the sound of the name.
I am the sign of the letter
and the designation of the division.
Trimorphic Protennoia:
Then the Son who is perfect in every respect -- that is, the Word who originated through that Voice; who proceeded from the height; who has within him the Name; who is a Light -- he revealed the everlasting things, and all the unknowns were known. And those things difficult to interpet and secret, he revealed. And as for those who dwell in Silence with the First Thought, he preached to them. And he revealed himself to those who dwell in darkness, and he showed himself to those who dwell in the abyss, and to those who dwell in the hidden treasuries, he told ineffable mysteries, and he taught unrepeatable doctrines to all those who became Sons of the Light.
Hellrider

Narkissos, yes, I knew that about the Lords prayer. I was just thinking, in John, with all the talk about the Son being given so much, almost like he has inherited everything, the world, the heavens, the title?, and all, and then, on top of that there`s John 17:11 ...well, I see now that I probably read to much into that verse.
UnDisfellowshipped

Gumby said:
Like I always say.........Let 20 people who know NOTHING about the bible read the New Testament......and then ask them who they think Jesus is.....God, or his son. I'll just betcha 100 bucks they all say the latter.

There is one major problem with that bet -- you are using a "one-way-or-the-other", "either/or" argument, trying to claim that Jesus must EITHER be God OR be The Son of God. You are trying to say that He cannot be both The Son of God and God The Son. Trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ is BOTH The Son of God (a distinct Person from The Father who is in subjection to The Father), AND also God The Son, the Almighty Creator who has the same Nature and Essence as The Father does.
I highly encourage everyone to read the New Testament. If you do read the New Testament, unless you are reading the New World Translation, you will quickly come across Verses such as these (taken from the "Modern King James Version"):
John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14: And the Word became flesh, and tabernacled among us. And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and of truth.
John 20:28-29: And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are they who have not seen and have believed.
John 5:17-18, 22-23: But Jesus answered them, My Father works until now, and I work. Then, because of this, the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but also said that God was His father, making Himself equal with God. [...] For the Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment to the Son, so that all should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
John 10:29-30: My Father who gave them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand. I and the Father are one!
John 10:38: [...] so that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.
John 14:9-11: Jesus said to him, Have I been with you such a long time and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father. And how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? [...] Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me [...]
Acts 20:28: Therefore take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He has purchased with His own blood.
Romans 9:5: whose are the fathers, and of whom is the Christ according to flesh, He being God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Hebrews 1:8: But to the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
Colossians 2:9-10: For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. And you are complete in Him, who is the Head of all principality and power
Titus 2:13: looking for the blessed hope, and the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
Hebrews 3:1-4: [...] consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus, who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all his house. For He was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, because he who has built the house has more honor than the house. For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God.
1 John 5:20: And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and the everlasting life.
Jude 1:4: For certain men crept in secretly, those having been of old previously written into this condemnation, ungodly ones perverting the grace of our God for unbridled lust, and denying the only Master, God, even our Lord Jesus Christ.
Revelation 22:12, 13, 16: And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the Ending, the First and the Last. [...] I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify these things to you over the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright and Morning Star.
So, anyone who does indeed read the New Testament will see clearly that Jesus IS the Son of God AND He is God The Son.
I challenge you to read the Gospel of John with an open mind and tell me what you believe the writer of John was saying about Jesus.
May the Lord Jesus bless you Gumby!
UnDisfellowshipped

CygnusX1,
Welcome to the Board!
You said:
Your efforts are appreciated, UnDF'd, but any JW that knows his stuff could easily answer all of those questions in concert with JW christology.
That was the point of this Thread. I encourage all Jehovah's Witnesses to prayerfully study and meditate on the questions and Scriptures that I brought up, and then, I encourage them to explain and reason from the Scriptures to show that Jesus is A god.
If any one of Jehovah's Witnesses can "easily answer all of those questions in concert with JW christology" then by all means, let's hear the answers!
UnDisfellowshipped

Cygnus said:
Well, if the questions were presented as more of a slice than a dozen whole pies, it might be easier to continue a dialogue.
Well, no one's stopping anyone from picking out just one of my questions and commenting on that question. You don't have to comment on all of them.
Cygnus said:
As it is, I can't see why anybody would spend 10 hours answering all those questions in a comprehensive manner, especially since they aren't original questions but rather a copy-and-paste from some anti-JW website.
First of all, as I said at the top of the post, these questions are FOR the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses. I made this thread so that JW's would have questions to THINK ABOUT and RESEARCH for themselves and, if they care to, try to answer them.
Secondly, I did NOT "copy-and-paste" these questions from "some anti-JW website." I did research into Watchtower publications and looked up their quotes on this subject, and compared the Scriptures and came up with my questions.
Is "10 hours" (or even 1,000 hours) not worth knowing the truth about Christ who is the Only One who can save you from Hell?
Cygnus said:
4:) Is Jesus a TRUE god or Is Jesus a false god?
That question has been demonstrated time and again on this board as a false dichotomy. People who ask such questions expecting to catch a JW in a "AHA!" moment are being a little intellectually dishonest and don't understand JW theology very well at all, though they think they do.
I have spent countless hours researching Watchtower publications for the specific purpose of learning exactly what "JW theology" and "JW christology" is, so I don't appreciate the accusation that I am being dishonest and that I don't know what I am talking about.
Do YOU know JW theology and christology?
Jehovah's Witnesses teach that God The Father ("Jehovah") is the ONLY True God, the ONLY God by Nature, the ONLY Almighty One, and the ONLY Creator. JW's also teach that Satan, his demons, and humans are all false gods. But then, JW's claim that there is a THIRD class of "gods", which is what Jesus is -- a Mighty God, but NOT Almighty, NOT a false god, but not the True God either.
The Watchtower Society teaches that The Only True God created ANOTHER, a 2nd god, who is lesser and inferior, as these quotes show:
The Watchtower, August 1, 1995, Page 9:
Jehovah first became both Father and Teacher when he created his only-begotten Son, the prehuman Jesus.
The Watchtower, March 15, 1975, Page 174:
So when John 1:1 refers to Jesus as "God," there really is no basis for concluding that he is the "second person" of a triune God. The text itself does not say anything like that. The word "God" in this application to the "Word" simply calls attention to that one's divine nature, his being Godlike, a mighty one, during his prehuman existence. [...] Thus the Father alone is THE God, the Supreme One, to whom all owe worship
The Watchtower, September 1, 1984, Page 28:
Jehovah's Witnesses do not deny Jesus' godship, or divinity. [...] Recognizing the Scriptural fact that Jesus is "a god" or "mighty one," Jehovah's Witnesses are not disturbed by John 20:28, where it is recorded that the apostle Thomas exclaimed to Jesus: "My Lord and my God!" For one thing, Thomas could have been using the word "God" like Manoah of old. (Judges 13:20-22) But even if this was not the case, there can be no confusion, for Jesus had recently sent a message to the apostles, stating: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God." (John 20:17; compare 2 Corinthians 1:3.) And John says he wrote down these details (including Thomas' exclamation) "that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God."--John 20:31.
The Watchtower, June 1, 1962, Page 351:
Jesus is not only the only-begotten Son of God but also a god, the only-begotten god. No doubt John used the Greek word for god, theós, here rather than the word huiós, "son," because he wanted to stress Jesus' godship rather than his sonship, in keeping with the opening verse of his Gospel in which he says of Jesus, "and the Word was a god."
Do YOU know and understand Scriptural theology and Christology?
The Bible DOES NOT teach a THIRD class of "gods." The Bible says that there are only TWO types of gods. The Bible teaches that there is Only One God by Nature, One Almighty, One Creator, and that ALL OTHER gods are "so-called gods" and are FALSE gods (in other words, NOT God by Nature). (Galatians 4:8)
Since the Bible teaches that there is ONLY ONE GOD BY NATURE, and the Bible says ALL other gods are false, "so-called gods" (1 Corinthians 8:5-6), my question for Jehovah's Witnesses remains and it is very important:
Is Jesus a false god or is He a true God? (or, in other words, is Jesus a "so-called god" or is He the Only True God by Nature?)
UnDisfellowshipped

Cygnus said:
it's only a salvation issue to evangelical fundies (including nontrinitarian fundies like Christadelphians and Jdubs).
Who exactly are "evangelical fundies"? What exactly is a "fundie"? Would you care to explain? I have seen several people on this website use the terms "Fundies" or "Fundiots." It seems very much to me that these terms are being used as "Name-Calling" propaganda tactics and are generalizations. Check this webpage out: http://www.dushkin.com/usingts/guide/prop.mhtml Cygnus said:
But you're right. The Bible contains precious little dogmatic doctrine that is spelled out to easily understand. The NT writers even admit Jesus kept certain people from understanding, spoke in signs and figures of speech and riddles, and "Peter" noted that a lot of xtians were confused about "Paul's" epistles.
The reason why certain people cannot understand the Bible is explained clearly at 1 Corinthians 2:13-14: 1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (MKJV): These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Hellrider

Yes, it`s hard to read thru passages like Colossians 2:9-10 without seeing a "one-ness" of the Father and the Son, and understand why the early church saw them as both being part of the deity. I think it`s smart to take a step back and look at this issue from a secular point of view, from time to time. Did many of the early christians believe Christ was God, Christ the bodily version of God? Sure they did. There are many texts and fragments from the early church that shows clearly that they did (no matter how dishonest the WTS are, as they try to falsify this information about early christianity). Probably, some believed otherwise too, we will never know. So, from a non-christian viewpoint, wouldn`t it be possible that this "well, we really don`t know"-thing also made its imprint on the Bible? That this is why some parts of the NT clearly points to Christ being part of the deity (of the God, the one and only God, and hence, what was later called "trinitarianism"), and other parts emphasising Christs role as "the Son"? I think so. Anyway, this dilemma is what trinitarianism tried to solve in the first place. This doctrine was the solution to the problem, as it says that Christ is both the Son, and he is part of God. So, I guess, if you don`t see a problem with certain passages in the Bible (all the passages in John), then you don`t have to embrace trinitarianism. But I certainly see some problems, and so do many others
Just one more thing: Nowhere in the NT is it mentioned that "the Word" was created by God, on the contrary, it was "with God in the beginning"! Do you (trinitarians) see the passages where Christ is referred to as "the Son" as referring solely to his earthly state, his physical body, or do you see the title "son" as referring also to his pre-physical state?
Cygnus

Oh yuck, I'm sorry for jumping into this thread. Please allow me to back away as this issue has been discussed ad nauseam and the Watchtower gas given tons of reasons and answers in their literature to clarify their position. If people still have questions about it then they can look up the pertinent WT articles. You seem to have access to such, UnDF'd, so I'll let them speak for themselves and if you disagree, that's ok with me. Also, I'm sorry if you didn't copy and paste your original post in this thread, and I do apologize if you were the author of the post, but I've seen the exact same arguments and questions word-for-word in many places.
edited to add: John's prologue says the Logos was made flesh, not the Son. Jn 1:1 is also grammatically unclear. As others have said, if John or the Johannine community really wanted to say Jesus = Logos = eternal personal preexistence = 2nd person of the trinity, it could have been said a lot easier. Instead, Jn 1:18 says the unbegotten THEOS (god) has made God known as nobody has otherwise seen God. No wonder it took several hundred years to formulate a creed that says Jesus and the Father are equal in power and substance/essence and then many centuries later several million people disagreed.

Is Jesus Christ God?

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