Is Jesus Christ God?

by UnDisfellowshipped 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

Hellrider said:
Yes, it`s hard to read thru passages like Colossians 2:9-10 without seeing a "one-ness" of the Father and the Son, and understand why the early church saw them as both being part of the deity. I think it`s smart to take a step back and look at this issue from a secular point of view, from time to time. Did many of the early christians believe Christ was God, Christ the bodily version of God? Sure they did. There are many texts and fragments from the early church that shows clearly that they did (no matter how dishonest the WTS are, as they try to falsify this information about early christianity). Probably, some believed otherwise too, we will never know. So, from a non-christian viewpoint, wouldn`t it be possible that this "well, we really don`t know"-thing also made its imprint on the Bible? That this is why some parts of the NT clearly points to Christ being part of the deity (of the God, the one and only God, and hence, what was later called "trinitarianism"), and other parts emphasising Christs role as "the Son"? I think so. Anyway, this dilemma is what trinitarianism tried to solve in the first place. This doctrine was the solution to the problem, as it says that Christ is both the Son, and he is part of God. So, I guess, if you don`t see a problem with certain passages in the Bible (all the passages in John), then you don`t have to embrace trinitarianism. But I certainly see some problems, and so do many others
Just one more thing: Nowhere in the NT is it mentioned that "the Word" was created by God, on the contrary, it was "with God in the beginning"! Do you (trinitarians) see the passages where Christ is referred to as "the Son" as referring solely to his earthly state, his physical body, or do you see the title "son" as referring also to his pre-physical state?
Hello Hellrider,
As you probably know, I am a Christian who believes in the Trinity (as taught in the Holy Scriptures). I'm not going to pretend to be an "expert" on the Bible or the Trinity, but I have studied the Trinity probably more than any other doctrine of the Bible.
First of all, a lot of times, it is the very same book of the Bible (for example, the Gospel of John) which emphasizes the Deity of Christ AND the Humanity of Christ. Just look at these passages:
John 5:17-23 (English Standard Version): But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
John 5:30 (ESV): "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
John 8:28-29, 58 (ESV): So Jesus said to them, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me. And he who sent me is with me. He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to him." [...] Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
John 12:49 (ESV): For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment--what to say and what to speak.
John 6:38 (ESV): For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
So, within the Gospel of John, sometimes within the same Chapter, Jesus is clearly presented as God and also as Man. He is presented as God Almighty, but also as being in subjection to The Father.
The Bible also shows that Jesus is in subjection to The Father in heaven as well. The Son has always been, and will always be in subjection to The Father and The Father has a "Greater" Position, but not a better Nature or Essence:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV): But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 3:23 (ESV): and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (ESV): Then comes the end, when he [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Revelation 1:1 (ESV): The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Acts 1:7 (ESV): He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.
Matthew 20:23 (ESV): He said to them, "You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father."
Joh 14:9-11, 28 (ESV): Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves. [...] You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Trinitarians believe that in relation to each other, The Father is greater than The Son, but in relation to humans and angels, they both deserve equal worship, praise, honor, glory, and prayer.
The Bible teaches that Jesus, as God The Son in Heaven, and on earth, and into all Eternity, is subject to His Father, but He deserves equal worship from us.
Narkissos

Trinitarians believe that in relation to each other, The Father is greater than The Son

Which trinitarians? Most mainstream churches accept the Athanasian Creed which clearly rejects this idea: "In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another."
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Quicumque.html
Hellrider

Yes. Undisfellowshipped, I too felt that you gave a way to "JW-friendly" version of the Trinity-doctrine in your last post. The way I understood it, the idea of the Trinity is that there really IS only one god, ONE god that "expresses" itself in different ways, for simplicitys sake and for humankind to understand it, it has been sumed up as: the Father, the Son and the holy ghost. They are all part of the Godhead, and deserve equal praise. It is from this perspective I asked the question, which you, by the way, didn`t answer:
Just one more thing. Nowhere in the NT is it mentioned that "the Word" was created by God, on the contrary, it was "with God in the beginning"! Do you (trinitarians) see the passages where Christ is referred to as "the Son" as referring solely to his earthly state, his physical body, or do you see the title "son" as referring also to his pre-physical state?
So again: As Jesus talks, here on earth, he talks as a human being! As a human being he refers to God in heaven as his Father, and he refers to himself as the Son. But what I want to know is this: Should this father/son-distinction also be in effect, also when considering Christ in his heavenly state? Because, when thinking of Christ in the sense of just "a Son", as you did in your last post, it is easy to see him as inferior to God. And the idea behind the Trinity-doctrine, is that Christ is just as much God, as God himself, because Christ is part of this God. "God became flesh"! I really think you downplayed Christs role in your last post. If you did that to try to sweet-talk people along, it`s not necessary. I understand the trinity-doctrine very well, I think, and I have the utmost respect for it.
UnDisfellowshipped

Narkissos:
The Scriptural teaching that The Father has always had a higher rank within the Godhead is known as "Functional Subordinationism" (as well as by other names).
I highly recommend that you visit these web pages for more information on this Biblical teaching:
http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn14_28.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/SPROUL19.HTM
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4222.asp
http://www.tektonics.org/guest/psfuncsub.html
http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=235
You asked me "which Trinitarians" believe that The Father has a "Greater" Position in Heaven than The Son.
Well, my answer is that the following Trinitarians believe(d) that The Father has a higher rank than The Son within the Godhead:
Albert Barnes
John Wesley
John Gill
Adam Clarke
And, please read these quotes from respected Bible Commentaries:
"Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary" (1 Corinthians 15:28)
Son ... himself ... subject -- not as the creatures are, but as a Son voluntarily subordinate to, though co-equal with, the Father. In the mediatorial kingdom, the Son had been, in a manner, distinct from the Father. Now, His kingdom shall merge in the Father’s, with whom He is one; not that there is thus any derogation from His honor; for the Father Himself wills "that all should honor the Son, as they honor the Father" (Joh_5:22, Joh_5:23; Heb_1:6).
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"Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible" (1 Corinthians 3:23):
Christ is God’s - Christ is the Mediator between God and man. He came to do the will of God. He was and is still devoted to the service of his Father. God has a proprietorship in all that he does, since Christ lived, and acted, and reigns to promote the glory of his Father. The argument here seems to be this, "You belong to Christ; and he to God. You are bound therefore, not to devote yourselves to a man, whoever he may be, but to Christ, and to the service of that one true God, in whose service even Christ was employed. And as Christ sought to promote the glory of his Father, so should you in all things." This implies no inferiority of nature of Christ to God. It means only that he was employed in the service of his Father, and sought his glory - a doctrine everywhere taught in the New Testament. But this does not imply that he was inferior in his nature. A son may be employed in the service of his father, and may seek to advance his father’s interests. But this does not prove that the son is inferior in nature to his father. It proves only that he is inferior in some respects - in office. So the Son of God consented to take an inferior office or rank; to become a mediator, to assume the form of a servant, and to be a man of sorrows; but this proves nothing in regard to his original rank or dignity. That is to be learned from the numerous passages which affirm that in nature he was equal with God. See the note at Joh_1:1.
"Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible" (John 14:28):
In the plan of salvation the Father is represented as giving the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the various blessings of the gospel. As the Appointer, the Giver, the Originator, he may be represented as in office superior to the Son and the Holy Spirit. The discourse has no reference, manifestly, to the nature of Christ, and cannot therefore be adduced to prove that he is not divine. Its whole connection demands that we interpret it as relating solely to the imparting of the blessings connected with redemption, in which the Son is represented all along as having been sent or given, and in this respect as sustaining a relation subordinate to the Father.
"Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible" (1 Corinthians 11:3):
And the head of Christ is God - Christ, as Mediator, has consented to assume a subordinate rank, and to recognize God the Father as superior in office. Hence, he was obedient in all things as a Son; he submitted to the arrangement required in redemption; he always recognized his subordinate rank as Mediator, and always regarded God as the supreme Ruler, even in the matter of redemption. The sense is, that Christ, throughout his entire work, regarded himself as occupying a subordinate station to the Father; and that it was proper from his example to recognize the propriety of rank and station everywhere.
"Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible" (1 Corinthians 15:24):
Here the obvious sense is that of surrendering, giving back, delivering up, rendering up that which had been received, implying that an important trust had been received, which was now to be rendered back. And according to this interpretation, it means:
(1) That the Lord Jesus had received or been entrusted with an important power or office as mediator; compare the note on Mat_18:18.
(2) that he had executed the purpose implied in that trust or commission; and,
(3) That he was now rendering back to God that office or authority which he had received at his hands.
As the work had been accomplished which had been contemplated in his design; as there would be no further necessity for mediation when redemption should have been made, and his church recovered from sin and brought to glory; there would be no further need of that special arrangement which had been implied in the work of redemption, and, of course, all the entrustment of power involved in that would be again restored to the hands of God. The idea, says Grotius, is, that he would deliver up the kingdom as the governors of provinces render again or deliver up their commission and authority to the Caesars who appointed them. There is no absurdity in this view. For "if" the world was to be redeemed, it was necessary that the Redeemer should be entrusted with power sufficient for his work. When that work was done, and there was no further need of that special exercise of power, then it would be proper that it should be restored, or that the government of God should be administered as it was before the work of redemption was undertaken; that the Divinity, or the Godhead, as such, should preside over the destinies of the universe. Of course, it will not follow that the Second Person of the Trinity will surrender "all" power, or "cease" to exercise government. It will be that power only which he had as Mediator; and whatever part in the administration of the government of the universe he shared as divine before the incarnation, he will still share, with the additional "glory" and "honor" of having redeemed a world by his death.
"Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible" (1 Corinthians 15:27):
It is implied by this exception here, that when the necessity for the special mediatorial kingdom of the Son should cease, there would be a resuming of the authority and dominion of the Father, in the manner in which it subsisted before the incarnation.
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"Geneva Bible Translation Notes" (John 14:28):
This is spoken in that Christ is mediator, for in this regard the Father is greater than he, in as much as the person to whom request is made is greater than he that makes the request.
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"Robertson's Word Pictures" (John 14:28):
The filial relation makes this necessary. Not a distinction in nature or essence (cf. Joh_10:30), but in rank in the Trinity. No Arianism or Unitarianism here. The very explanation here is proof of the deity of the Son (Dods).
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"John Wesley's Explanatory Notes" (1 Corinthians 11:3):
the head of Christ is God - Christ, as he is Mediator, acts in all things subordinately to his Father. But we can no more infer that they are not of the same divine nature, because God is said to be the head of Christ, than that man and woman are not of the same human nature, because the man is said to be the head of the woman.
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"John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible" (1 Corinthians 3:23):
And Christ is God's; he is his Son, his own, his only begotten and well beloved Son, as he is a divine person; and as man he is his creature, made by him, and inferior to him; he is the head of him, as the man is of the woman; and as Mediator, he is his righteous servant, whom he has chosen, called, brought forth, upheld, and in whom he is glorified: so that, upon the whole, the saints should not glory in men, though ever so great and good, but in God, and in Christ, as of God, made unto them wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption.
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"Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible" (1 Corinthians 3:23):
And as mediator between God and man, he must be considered, in a certain way, inferior to God, but in his own essential, eternal nature, there is no inequality - he is God over all.
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UnDisfellowshipped

Hellrider said:
Yes. Undisfellowshipped, I too felt that you gave a way to "JW-friendly" version of the Trinity-doctrine in your last post.
I'm not sure what you found wrong with my last post. Did you read my entire post?
If you want to see a more complete picture of what I believe about the Trinity, I recommend you check out these Threads that I posted in the past:
"All About The Trinity": http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/69282/1.ashx
"What Does The Bible Say About Jesus?": http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/48111/1.ashx
"All About Jesus Christ": http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/49159/1.ashx
"Is Jesus Christ Michael the Archangel?": http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/45177/1.ashx
Please re-read these statements from my last post:
He [Jesus] is presented as God Almighty, but also as being in subjection to The Father.
Do you disagree or agree with that statement?
The Father has a "Greater" Position, but not a better Nature or Essence
Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
I also quoted these Scriptures:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV): But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
1 Corinthians 3:23 (ESV): and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (ESV): Then comes the end, when he [Jesus] delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Do you agree or disagree with those Scriptures? What is your belief about those Verses? They are clearly talking about Jesus NOW (and in the future) in Heaven.
Hellrider said:
The way I understood it, the idea of the Trinity is that there really IS only one god, ONE god that "expresses" itself in different ways, for simplicitys sake and for humankind to understand it, it has been sumed up as: the Father, the Son and the holy ghost. They are all part of the Godhead, and deserve equal praise.
I agree with you on a couple of points:
1: There is only ONE God.
2: The Father, Son, and Spirit deserve equal praise.
However, the Trinity doctrine does not teach that The Father, Son, and Spirit are three "expressions" of the same Person. It is Modalism which teaches that God is One Person who "expresses Himself" three ways.
Also, the Trinity doctrine does not teach that each of the Three Persons are "Part of God." No, rather, each of the Three Persons is FULLY, 100% God, NOT partly God. In other words, The Son is NOT one-third of God, He is 100% God. The same way for The Father and The Holy Spirit. But, they are not three Gods, but ONE God.
Hellrider said:
It is from this perspective I asked the question, which you, by the way, didn`t answer:
Just one more thing. Nowhere in the NT is it mentioned that "the Word" was created by God, on the contrary, it was "with God in the beginning"! Do you (trinitarians) see the passages where Christ is referred to as "the Son" as referring solely to his earthly state, his physical body, or do you see the title "son" as referring also to his pre-physical state?
So again: As Jesus talks, here on earth, he talks as a human being! As a human being he refers to God in heaven as his Father, and he refers to himself as the Son. But what I want to know is this: Should this father/son-distinction also be in effect, also when considering Christ in his heavenly state? Because, when thinking of Christ in the sense of just "a Son", as you did in your last post, it is easy to see him as inferior to God.
It should be noted that Christ, now in heaven, was resurrected in His Human Body (now glorified and immortal), and now in Heaven He is still 100% Human and 100% God. I have written about that subject at this Thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/43935/1.ashx
The title "the Son of Man" basically means "Man." In the same way, the title "the Son of God" means "God" or "equal to God." The Jews knew this and tried to kill Jesus for claiming to be The Son of God (John 5:18; John 19:7). When Jesus called Himself the Son of Man, He was emphasizing His Humanity, and when He called Himself The Son of God, He was emphasizing His Deity.
As to your question, there are quite a few Verses which show that Jesus was The Son before coming to earth:
Hebrews 1:8 (KJV): But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Galatians 4:4 (KJV): But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Hebrews 5:8 (KJV): Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
1 John 4:9-10 (KJV): In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
1 John 4:14 (KJV): And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Romans 8:3 (KJV): For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh
1 John 3:8 (KJV): He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Romans 8:32 (KJV): He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Romans 1:3-4 (KJV): Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead
John 1:18 (KJV): No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:17 (KJV): For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
1 John 5:20 (KJV): And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
There are also Verses which clearly say that Jesus is The Son NOW in Heaven:
Revelation 2:18 (KJV): And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
John 20:31 (KJV): But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1 John 4:15 (KJV): Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1 John 5:5 (KJV): Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Hebrews 4:14 (KJV): Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Acts 7:56 (KJV): And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Acts 9:20 (KJV): And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (KJV): And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1 Corinthians 1:9 (KJV): God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
1 John 1:3 (KJV): That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
1 John 1:7 (KJV): But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1 John 2:23 (KJV): Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
2 John 1:3 (KJV): Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
1 Corinthians 15:28 (KJV): And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
I will let those Scriptures speak for themselves.
Also, AFTER Jesus had been raised from the dead, He still called The Father His GOD and His Father:
Revelation 3:12 (KJV): Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of MY GOD, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of MY GOD, and the name of the city of MY GOD, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from MY GOD: and I will write upon him my new name.
John 20:17 (KJV): Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to MY FATHER: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto MY FATHER, and your Father; and to MY GOD, and your God.
Hellrider said:
And the idea behind the Trinity-doctrine, is that Christ is just as much God, as God himself, because Christ is part of this God. "God became flesh"! I really think you downplayed Christs role in your last post. If you did that to try to sweet-talk people along, it`s not necessary. I understand the trinity-doctrine very well, I think, and I have the utmost respect for it.
Christ is just as much God (in His eternity, powers, essence, qualities, nature, and attributes) as The Father is. Christ is NOT "part of God" -- He is 100%, fully and totally God Almighty (but distinct from The Father and The Spirit).
God did indeed become Flesh as 1 Timothy 3:16 says so wonderfully:
1 Timothy 3:16 (KJV): And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Let me ask you a question, did the Apostle Paul "downplay" Christ's role at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, 1 Corinthians 11:3, and 1 Corinthians 3:23?
I highly recommend you check out these web pages for more information on the difference between Christ's RANK and Christ's ESSENCE:
http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn14_28.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/9170/SPROUL19.HTM
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/4222.asp
http://www.tektonics.org/guest/psfuncsub.html
http://www.baptist2baptist.net/b2barticle.asp?ID=235
The Father, The Son, and The Spirit are Co-Equal in the sense that they have equal essence (Nature), attributes, and qualities, AND they all deserve equal worship, praise, honor, and glory from humans and angels.
The Father has a "Greater" RANK than The Son, because He SENT the Son to earth, and Jesus said that the person who sends another person is GREATER than the person who is sent. The Son did NOT send The Father to earth.
My question to you is this: Was Jesus Christ a Human when God The Father SENT Jesus to earth? If not, then that means Jesus was in subjection to The Father while in Heaven. Also, why was Jesus called The Son in Heaven?
UnDisfellowshipped

I want to make it clear that I do believe that Jesus, when He became a Man, humbled Himself to a rank or position lower than that of the angels:
Hebrews 2:9 (MKJV): But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, that He by the grace of God should taste death for all.
2 Corinthians 8:9 (MKJV): For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, for your sakes He became poor, in order that you might be made rich through His poverty.
Isaiah 53:2 (MKJV): For He comes up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; He has no form nor majesty that we should see Him, nor an appearance that we should desire Him.
Philippians 2:6-11 (MKJV): who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Himself the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and has given Him a name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones, and of ones under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
When Jesus was on earth, He prayed to His Father to restore Him to His previous glory (and/or rank):
John 17:4-5 (MKJV): I have glorified You upon the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. And now Father, glorify Me with Yourself with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
Jesus, as 100% Man and 100% God, was restored to His previous glory and rank
Matthew 28:18 (MKJV): And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, All authority is given to Me in Heaven and in earth.
Hellrider

Undisfellowshipped:
Trinitarians believe that in relation to each other, The Father is greater than The Son, but in relation to humans and angels, they both deserve equal worship, praise, honor, glory, and prayer.
The Bible teaches that Jesus, as God The Son in Heaven, and on earth, and into all Eternity, is subject to His Father, but He deserves equal worship from us.
Ok. I have no problem with your view on the Trinity. But "The Father is greater than the Son", this sounds like subordination to me. I knew this was part of the beliefs of the early church, but I honestly believed that "modern Trinitarianism" saw them as equal. Perhaps I was mistaken. I`ll look into it more closely. Thanks.
LittleToe

HR:
Most bible scholars agree that that father and the son are disctinct in person, but the same in essence! And so, the question is, should you worship the God on basis of person, or essence?

I like this. Well phrased
UnDFed:One needs to be very careful when playing around with "functional subordination", for fear that confusion and misunderstanding arise. Christ was subordinate in the flesh, but then exalted in name. It's all good.
Hellrider

LT, thanks.
One needs to be very careful when playing around with;"functional subordination", for fear that confusion and misunderstanding arise.
Absolutely! For my own part, I can`t understand that a trinitarian can believe in "functional subordination". I think it`s impossible for the human mind to understand that the three are the (exact! - and this is the point;) same in essence, but that one should still be considered as above the others. Same in essence, distinct in person, and in a hierarchy with one "higher" than the other two...that`s just one big mess. It`s hard enough to try to understand "three, but one, all at the same time". No need to make it even more complex.
LittleToe

HR:
It works somewhat this way:
When the Son was on Earth, he was subordinate to the Father (especially as evidenced in Gethsemane), right? In that scenario the Father and the Son took on specific "functions" or "roles", and one was subordinate to the other.
That in no way obligates an inequality in the eternal Godhead.

Is Jesus Christ God?

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