How did they dare?

by Narkissos 49 Replies latest jw friends

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    This is a very simple question which came to my mind shortly after I broke free from the JW/fundamentalistic mindset.

    Assuming (1) that "God" didn't do and say everything that the Bible texts record him doing and saying, and (2) that the writers were not cynical, machiavelical atheists forging a "God" for the sole purpose of mind control, but really believed in their "God", the question is: how did they dare make their "God" speak and act?

    This question, of course, is pointless to you if you believe (1) that "God" did do and say everything that the Bible texts record him doing and saying, or (2) that the writers were cynical, machiavelical atheists forging a "God" for the sole purpose of mind control.

    But if you are somewhere in between, as many of us are (I think), this is a fascinating question which can help us get a better idea of the true nature of faith, between passive "fear of God" and the audacity of literary creation.

    Any taker?

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Schizophrenics and those with Bipolar Disorder wrote it?

  • hamsterbait
    hamsterbait

    Tales get twisted in the telling. maybe some wanted to influence others for whatever motive.

    Look at how Russell manipulated the measurements of the pyramids.

    Also ignorant folks exaggerate over time. Robin Hood, the Round Table etc. No ONE person wrote it all but each tiny change made by the copyist seemed so minor.

    See THX 1138, about how society has changed beyond all comprehension in tiny increments.

    HB

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Back then, everything was fluid, even chaotic at times. Reliable news scarce. Stories abundant. Tales from babylon, egypt, persia as well as the sourrounding areas get woven into the culture, eventually written down, but built around jews and a jewish god instead of foriegn. Later on, manipulative priests get the material and do a heavy editing job, and presto chango, a bible. It seems that truth was not important in the middle east during those milleniums. Being entertaining, propagandising for or against gods, kings, races or even animals seems to have been predominant in the tellers' minds.

    S

  • Gretchen956
    Gretchen956

    I think they had an agenda. That agenda was to take the goddess-worshipping, peaceful, matriarchal societies that lived at that time, and take over. They invented a god that was male, they wrote up a doctrine that took all that the matriarchy found sacred and turned them into objects of derision and fear, and they killed anyone that would not bow down to their invention. It's all about power and testosterone. When they said man created a god in his own image they weren't kidding.

    By the way, there is archeological evidence of this, it isn't just another conspiracy theory. (Read when God was a Woman and/or The Chalice and the Blade).

    Sherry

  • nilfun
    nilfun

    A writer who was sincere in the belief that he was recording the words and acts of god would be one who perhaps had a powerful visual or auditory sensation of "God". Why then would they be afraid to "dare" to write down God's deeds, especially if the god himself was commanding them to? I think nowadays, most would view such experiences as hallucinations of one kind or another, and those who had these types of experiences as a bit cracked -- but then the question: can there be found any "light [coming] through" those "cracks"? I personally lean towards the belief that many of the words were written with an agenda to control...but I have also read on the board about how there are common threads that run through different religious traditions -- maybe the commonalities are the light? It's an interesting question and kind of confusing for someone like me whose bible education mostly came from Watchtower/Awake, The greatest Man book, etc.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien
    how did they dare make their "God" speak and act?

    ya, i think that they really believed in their god, and anything malicious they did, they did because they truly believed it was helping people worship god the way he wanted. they also had political motives, but were most likely in total denial about it and in mentally discontinuous frameworks regarding it. they accepted the premise of jehovahs existence from childhood, and crafted all their stuff around it.

    i imagine some priest making up a little preist rule that went something like:

    i will ask god if it is okay to write this and that. if god does not strike me down, or it does not rain within 3 days, then i will take that as a sign from him that i can go ahead and put that bit in.

    which is hilarious to think about since 1) it hardly ever rained in the desert, and 2) it illustrates ancient man's inability to think rationally, and objectively. not that i know for certain that's how they did things, but it is kind of how i imagine it going at some point. LOL

    TS

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Interesting points. The creative process, indeed, is different from one text to another.

    In popular narratives it is diluted in the endless retelling (Hamsterbait, Satanus), and the individual work of any "author" becomes hardly perceptible.

    And sure a number of agendas can be detected (Satanus, Gretchen, Tetra)... I found the way Tetra put it especially illuminating :

    they also had political motives, but were most likely in total denial about it and in mentally discontinuous frameworks regarding it. they accepted the premise of jehovahs existence from childhood, and crafted all their stuff around it.

    Almost everything in human speech and behaviour can be described as the interaction of desire and structure: the flow of desire running across/around the extant linguistic / cultural structure, being diverted by it and yet modifying it constantly like a stream its bed. Beliefs are a significant part of the structure.

    Altered mental states (as jgnat and nilfun referred to, in a very different way), however induced, may be part of the tricks through which the desire succeeds in modifying the structure. Ezekiel would sound like a good candidate to me, and he is exceedingly creative. But there again, this applies only to a small portion of Bible texts -- most of which rather appear as the product of a very lucid, both pious and creative writing.

    Test oracles (Tetra) are well attested in the ancient Israelite religion (ephod ritual, ordeal, Urim/Tummim) as a way to have God speak but they are not highly creative from a narrative standpoint, since all you get is a "yes" or "no" answer (which can help in a critical moment of the story but is not what the story itself is made of). I had never thought of Tetra's suggestion, i.e. using it to validate a text though... and I guess any good story (perhaps the major keyword being "entertaining," as Satanus put it) would somehow pass the test...

    Whatever the strategies, it seems to me that the human mind always manages to believe in its own constructions, but never solidifies them to the point where they would actually become unchangeable. Creative faith appears to work between those limits, always finding its way between the obsessional efforts to "close the canon".

    Am I wrong in expecting Ross here?

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    My mother had a bible study that one night had a vision am immediately stopped the bible study as she felt Jesus had talked to her and so she did not need the JW religion. Mum thought it was Satan, she thought it was God, a Scientist may think it was a wonder of the mind. Possibly the bible writers had similar experiences and the literate ones wrote about it.
    I also believe some people believe they are doing people a favour by lieing. They want to get what they think is an important message across, and lie in all honesty to get that message believed.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    jwfacts

    Actually "lying" is the word we put on it. They probably wouldn't have thought of it that way.

    Another possibility is "inventing" -- which etymologically also means "finding"...

    --

    God(s) speak(s) all the time to living believers, and this is certainly not foreign to the creative process behind the Bible. But the mediation of writing, as ever, modifies everything.

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