I disassociated myself from JWs about 20 years ago so I'm a bit rusty on christian teaching. The intersting thing though is I hadn't completely disassociated my mind from their teachings and it's only been recently that I've had true independent thought. It's scary if you think about it. What got me thinking recently is who came up with the idea that someone perfect had to die for our sins. I just accepted it before, I just don't get it now. It's a weird notion. What is it with these macabre religions? Everything seems to be centered around death and judgement. You either live or die. If you analyse it carefully it's stuff that can only come from a cinical human mind. It's certainly not inspired from a kind, loving, caring divinity. Now that my eyes are open I cannot see (pardon the oxymoron) any difference between the abrahamic religions and other pagan religion past and present save those that performed ritual human sacrifice.
Why did Jesus have to die?
by ghostbuster 54 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Legolas
Welcome to the board!
That is a great point!
I think if there is a God he has to be a psycho! -
Navigator
I, like you, find the idea that Jesus had to die for the expiation of "sin" highly repugnant. Suppose, however, that the real mission of Jesus was to demonstrate that there was no such thing as death. It is kinda hard to make the demonstration without going through the process. I find it interesting that he is completly submissive to the entire process in light of a line in "A Course In Miracles" which goes, "That which you defend against, you make real to your own mind". He successfully demonstrated that death was an illusion and could be overcome. Would the "resurrection" have been possible if he had railed against the Romans and the Jewish leaders for what they were doing to him? I doubt it. The "sacrifice for sin" idea seems to be the result of trying to fit the radical stuff that Jesus was teaching into the existing "Theological Box" of the early Jewish Christians. The result of this "he died for my sins" concept is that we wind up feeling guiltier than ever. Come to think of it, isn't that(guilt) what makes churches go?
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Narkissos
The saving, especially sacrificial, especially vicarious explanations are only a few among the NT interpretations of Jesus' death/resurrection. Here is a sample:
Condemnation and vindication of the righteous Mc 14—16//; Ac 2.24,32; 3.13ss; 4.10s; 5.30; 7.52; 8.32s; 10.38ss
Test and qualification Hé 5.7ss; 12.1ss
– Access to the right hand of God Mc 14.62//; Ac 2.33; Hé 1.3,13; 1P 3.22
– Access to the status of Lord Ac 2.32; Rm 14.8; Ph 2.8ss; cf. Mt 28.18
Revelation of the Son Ga 1.16
– Raising and glorifying as the Son of Man Jn 3.14ss; 12.32s; 13.31s; 17.1,5
– Constitution of the Son of God Rm 1.3s
Fight against evil, apparent defeat and victory Jn 14.30; 1Co 2.8; Col 2.15; cf. Mc 8.33//; Lc 22.53
Jesus’ will Jn 10.17s; 17.19; cf. Mt 26.53s
God’s will Ac 2.23; 3.17s,21; 4.11,25-28; 8.35; 13.29
According to the Scriptures Mc 14.21,27,49//; Mt 26.54; 27.9s; Lc 22.37; Jn 19.28,31-37; 1Co 15.3s
Strength of weakness, Wisdom of folly 1Co 1.18-25; cf. 2.2; 2Co 13.4; Ga 3.1
Proof of God’s Love Rm 5.6-8; 8.32; 1Jn 4.9ss
Saving deathFor many Mc 10.45; 14.24//
For all 2Co 5.14ss; 1Tm 2.6
For his own Jn 10.15
For sins 1Co 15.3-5,17
– Atoning Sacrifice Rm 3.25s; 1Jn 2.2; 4.10
– Paschal Lamb Jn 1.29,36; 1Co 5.7; 1P 1.18s
– Redemption and liberation Mc 10.45//; 1Co 6.20; 7.23; Ga 3.13; 4.5; 1P 1.18s
– Vicarious punishment and grace 2Co 5.21; Ga 3.13; 1P 2.21-25; 3.18-22
– Condemning sin Rm 8.3; cf. 5.19
– Justifying the sinner Rm 4.24s
– Intercessing for the guilty Rm 8.34; cf. Lc 23.34
Validating the covenant Mc 14.24//; Hé 8; 9.15-20; 10.29; 12.24
Reconciliation 2Co 5.18ss
Founding the Church Ep 1.20-23
Firstfruits of the resurrection Mt 27.51ss; 1Co 15.20; 2Co 5; Col 1.18; 1Th 4.14ss; Ap 1.5
An exampleDie to the old and live to the new Rm 6.1-11
Die to the earthly and live to the heavenly Col 3.1-4
Die to oneself and live to Christ 2Co 5.14ss
Die to oneself and live to others 1Jn 3.16 -
Jeffro
I think if there is a God he has to be a physco!
Or psycho even.
The notion of the ransom is actually quite primitive and ultimately steeped in mysticism with some 'modern' concepts of ceremony thrown in.
The bible is not even consistent on the concept of whether descendents should be punished for the sins of their forefathers. (Compare Exodus 34:7 with 2 Chronicles 25:4)
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Hellrider
Personally, I think "the ransom" of Christ, is the result of old, old jewish thinking. In "ancient" jewish times, the Israelites had the cusom of, once a year, to lay all the sins of the tribe on a ram, and chase it into the wilderness. The ram "took away" the sins of the tribe for another year. Sounds familiar? Could almost 2000 years of christianity and world history (think about it) have been determined by an old jewish custom?
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Narkissos
Note that "ransom" and "sacrifice" are two distinct and incompatible images.
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Jeffro
If Jesus is in heaven in an extremely powerful position, all of which he knew would happen after his death, it's not really much of a 'sacrifice'.
If Jesus is alive at all, it isn't much of a 'ransom' either.
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gumby
I think Jehovah should have shitcanned Adam and Eve and given someone like me a shot at stayin away from that damn tree. I know I coulda done it If I can quit smokin for 3 months, I can stay away from a dumb ol' tree.
Gumby
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Hellrider
You quit smoking? Argh, I`ve tried that too. Can`t do it. I just frikkin can`t do it. And I really should, I have a little bit of asthma. The flesh is so weak..