Why did Jesus have to die? (page 4)

AuldSoul

Men die. Well, if they live long enough anyway.

AuldSoul

mdb

That's not the point. The ransom analogy suggests that X pays something to Y in order to release Z from the power of Y. If you say Y = Z, the analogy is ruined.

The "analogy" is wrong. Christ (X) owes nothing to Satan (Y) that He should purchase man (Z) from the power of Satan (Y) by means of a transaction between he and Himself. Satan never owned us in order to sell us and I (Z) am not Satan (Y) as you claim by your Y=Z analogy. Your analogy was ruined from the start because you cannot "calculate" the truths of God.

Satan temporarily has power over us who are not God's children, but he does not have ownership that God should purchase man from him. He died to purchase man from the power of Satan, of darkness, of sin. Jesus died and rose again to life to take away the great divide between man and God so we might have communion with Him. You cannot take what Jesus Christ did for you and put it into a mathematical formula.

"To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."

" Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:"

startingover

mdb

Maybe I missed something, but who said Y was Satan? The question still stands, who is Y?

Seems to me Y is the one requiring the sacrifice of a perfect man.

Narkissos

StartingOver,

You came back just in time...

Over 2 am here, I was going to bed

But I would bet on X = Y (merciful-God pays ransom to just-God)

Leolaia

gumby....Story after story in the gospels lifts language, narrative elements, or whole episodes from the OT. Jesus fleeing from the Pharisees and meeting the woman at the well....Jesus feeding the multitude with bread and fish....Herod trying to kill all the babies and Jesus and his parents fleeing to Egypt and then are called back when "the people trying to kill you are dead"...Pilate washing his hands of guilt....Judas betraying Jesus for pieces of silver...the kiss of Judas and his guts falling out...the sudden withering of the fig tree...the whole Passion and resurrection narrative being built up by scores of allusions to the OT... etc. etc.

anewme

I thought that Jehovah made a decree to the first man that if he ate of the tree he would die.
And when he did God could not take back the decree. But just like other OT stories (Esther)
another decree could be made to counter act the first one. Hence the quick decision on Jehovahs part to come up with the ransom idea. But who could provide it?
I thought Jehovah and Jesus huddled for a few seconds and when they broke it was decided that the "seed of the woman" (secret decoder ring stuff) would crush the head of the serpent, but that he would be bruised in the heel.

I thought in recognition of this need for atonement, faithful men devised the symbolic sacrifices of the shed blood of animals to represent this one for whom they waited.

I thought that throughout the centuries faithful men looked for clues as to who would be the seed of the woman who would come and undo the works of the devil and the death brought upon mankind in Eden.

I remember a book tallying up over 332 prophecies about the Messiah that Jesus alone fulfilled. No other man in history can match that accomplishment.

So when they recognized him as the messiah and he was put to death just like the scriptures described he would in Isaiah, his followers believed he was the atoning sacrifice, the one meant to die for our sins.

Nate Merit

Hi mdb

If this is so, my answer is that this 'God' could have done a far more convincing job of demonstrating love by eliminating disease, injury, poverty, old age, injustice, inequality, birth defects and congenital deformities...or better yet, just not have created these things at all.

Puh-LEEZE dont tell me that an Omni-potent Omni-scient in-finite Being was thwarted in its plans by some bio-specks on a mote of dust.

If your God was a mans God, she/he/it would take respnsibily for its creation (which it went ahead and made knowing full well exactly what would occur), and not dump that responsibilty upon the finite shoulders of the creatures of its own creation.

At least be a Deist. They at least face the fact that God is not love and does not care. If theists were to grasp this fact, that we only have each other, then maybe they would stop blowing each other to smithereens in honor and worsip of this god. No, I am not an atheist. Most days anyway.

It's tired and I'm getting late.
Nate

Jeffro

The reason God himself came to be the sacrificial lamb is because he loves his creation and God, by nature, is love. The scriptures say that the greatest act of love is that a man lay down his life for a friend. By God coming to be the sacrifice required to bring man to himself, he performs the greatest act of love and calls those who believe on Jesus Christ (God), friend. If God sent someone else to die for the world which he created, He would not have performed that great act of love. Aside from that, no human could have bore the cross because all men are born into sin and born of the flesh. But God, born of the Spirit in the God-man Jesus Christ, is perfect.

The scriptures also say that children should not die for the sins of their fathers.

Wouldn't it be more loving and merciful to forgive mankind without the bloodshed? So much for turn the other cheek.

Why is it that someone who espouses the love of God so much has an avatar of a mouse crippled by a laser printer's toner cartridge anyway?

ghostbuster

Nate Merit,

you hit the nail on the head,

My sentiments exactly. Bloodshed for more bloodshed. Sounds like the Gods of Olympus, rather than JW's perception of God ie loving, caring etc. I really believe the Greeks had the nature of God/s down to a tee.

It makes sense that this Jewish God was so bloodthirsty because the jews needed an excuse to kill off the canaanites and take their land over a bogus divine claim.

Like I said earlier, in this scheme the only person that needed dieing was Satan. End of story.

And another thing. God said to Adam he would die if he took fruit of the tree. How does that translate into everybody thereafter must die too? Even normal human justice isn't that depraved.

Ghostbuster

startingover

I guess mdb bailed out on this thread.

Why did Jesus have to die?

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