Fascinating discussion! Where can I find out more about the history surrounding the formation of the present day Bible and the inclusions and exclusions?
And you history buffs and scholars, what are your favorite sources for info?
Hell, Forgivness, and Redemption
by gumby 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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anewme
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DanTheMan
The hellfire belief is predicated on the idea that we all contain some inner essence, a ghost in the machine that has absolute free will to make moral choices.
So let's say that God determines that a certain individual's inner essence is morally corrupt beyond saving, and therefore the person is deserving of eternal punishment in hell. My question is, at what point did that soul become morally corrupt? It seems to me that it would have had to have been created that way. Because even if it started out on the right side of things, the fact that it was eventually seduced by the dark side would mean that there was some exploitable weakness built into it.
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Blueblades
Gumby, the Bible is not a book that we should put our future life on. Outside the Bible its anyones guess on what happens after we pass on. I don't believe for one second that the penalty fits the crime. A small lifetime of sin equals an eternity of punishment???????? Wher is the justice inthat kind of thinking? You and I would never do that to anyone.
Blueblades
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Hellrider
A small lifetime of sin equals an eternity of punishment????????
Hm, well, I`m not sure about it being an "eternity". I know this is what the catholics believe, and I know the phrase "eternal fire" is mentioned in the Gospels... The pharisees had lots of theories about hell, its nature, and how long the souls (or ressurected) sinful, would be placed there. I think they actually agreed upon a year, as the appropriate time for sinners (lol). This kind of resembles the purgatory-belief of the catholic church. I`m not sure about the catholics beliefs, but I assume that in catholicism, the "really really wicked" would probably be there forever...while the "minor sinners" would be in purgatory for a while, and then go to heaven. But the Bible says "eternal"...does "eternal" really have to mean forever? I don`t think so, not for sure. Many people, including JWs, sees the hell-doctrine as such a horrible thing, that God couldn`t possibly have such a hot and nasty place reserved for sinners. But the JWs shouldn`t talk, I don`t think the Armageddon-thing, eternal non-existence, is that much better, especially if Hell is just a limited period of time. That all depends on how horrible it really is in hell. Let me ask you this: Don`t you think Hitler, Mengele, Eichman, Stalin, Pol Pot etc, were let off to easy? Was death good enough punishment for those bastards? What about people who rape and kill little children? Is death good enough punishment for them? I think not. Eternal hellfire is more like it. Burn, burn!
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gumby
Don`t you think Hitler, Mengele, Eichman, Stalin, Pol Pot etc, were let off to easy? Was death good enough punishment for those bastards? What about people who rape and kill little children? Is death good enough punishment for them? I think not. Eternal hellfire is more like it. Burn, burn!
So Hellrider.....could you watch them burn? I think anyone who thinks Hitler and his type of men were monsters.....then wishes the SAME treatment on them that they inflicted, puts your mind where there's is at....does it not? Endless burning of humans is for psychopaths.
I realise your not really that way and sometimes our emotions speak......but torture of any kind is never warranted except for in the minds of heartless sociopaths .
Gumby
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Hellrider
I realise your not really that way and sometimes our emotions speak
Well, actually...lol, no, maybe you`re right. Of course, I see your point about sinking down to the torturers level, by wanting to inflict the same pain on them. And no, I couldn`t personally inflict that kind of pain on someone myself, no matter what he/she had done, or even watch it. At least I think so. On the other hand, people in extreme situations find that they are capable of doing the most horrible things, so I don`t know. But on the other hand, if death is the only punishment, then there is no punishment, no justice in the world. Everybody dies, good and bad. If there is no "additional punishment" for people like Hitler and people like him, then there is no justice in the world. Well, maybe pedophiles, murderers etc, are reborn as pigs, what do I know. If God (if he exists) has something bad in store for people like that, then I don`t see a problem with that. Maybe God evens the score somehow, it doesn`t have to be by inflicting physical pain. Maybe the liberalist theologians are right, that hell is "absence from god". It`s all about, and very closely connected to the concept of free will. If man HAS free will (and according to the Bible, he does), then all actions, good and bad, has some sort of consequense. Let me ask you this question: If God exists, and he has the power to ressurect the dead, or let their souls into heaven or whatever, do you think that it is ethical of Him to ressurect (or let in the souls of) the good people only? If so, then this isn`t much cooler/less harsh than throwing someone in hell for a limited period of time, is it?
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Leolaia
anewme....This is a vast area. I would encourage you, first of all, to read the stuff for yourself. If you can find a good library, I would recommend the Dead Sea Scrolls: A New Translation (by Wise, Abegg, Cook) for the Qumran sectarian texts, the two volumes of the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (by Charlesworth) for the key pseudepigraphal texts, the unabridged Jerusalem Bible for the apocrypha, the Complete Gospels (by Funk) for the non-canonical gospels, New Testament Apocrypha (by Schneemelcher), and the Apostolic Fathers (by Holmes) on the earliest Christian literature outside the NT. To get yourself started, you may peruse the following websites to get some idea of the extant literature outside of the Bible:
http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
(Bear in mind that, due to copyright issues, many of the translations that can be put on the internet must be old, and thus are sometimes archaic and harder to understand than the recent translations mentioned above.)
For some of my own posting on this subject, you may be interested in my thread on the use of 1 Enoch (which, incidentally, does have a notion of hell) in the NT which even cites it as inspired prophecy:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/85223/1.ashx
In this post, I explore evidence that James quotes from a lost apocryphal book as "scripture" (probably Eldad and Modad):
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/80498/1.ashx
The same post also discusses the history of the canon and how other apocryphal and pseudepigraphal books were at times accepted as holy Scripture tho not canonical. For an overview of extrabiblical OT traditions in the NT, see my post on this here:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/67328/1050144/post.ashx#1050144
On the possible relationship between the OT and earlier Canaanite works, see my posts on this:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/67904/1.ashx
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/68919/1.ashx
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/68098/1.ashx
On the possible relationship between the Book of Giants (an addition to 1 Enoch among the Dead Sea Scrolls) and the Akkadian Epic of Gilgamesh:
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Narkissos
Hellrider
Leaving religion and texts aside, I think there is more to life than "justice".
This reminds me of a Russian movie I saw a few years ago (don't remember the title or the author unfortunately). As i recall, there was a scene after the German defeat in 1945, in which a raging young Russian soldier was throwing documents from Nazi headquarters into the fire. The pictures of the horror went backwards: scenes of war, executions, torture, prisoners, arrests, early Nazi parades, Hitler as a WWI hero, as a young soldier... and the last one as a baby. And this last one he couldn't burn and burst into tears.
Tyrants big or small, torturers, murderers, or average abusive people are to be fought off when they are alive and harmful. Resisting them and stopping them is what matters, and that takes more courage than wishing them hell. But "justice," especially everlasting? That sounds like the "resentment" of the weak which was, according to Nietzsche, the keyword of Christianity.
We're all actors in a terrible play.
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Hellrider
Narkissos! You are referring to a movie called "Come and see!" - the original title is "Idi i smotri". You mixed up the story a bit, though. It`s about a young boy, who experiences seeing his entire village burned, looted, the young women raped, and afterwards, everyone killed, an einsatzgruppen (the nazi deathsquadrons) in the Ukraine. He joins up with some russian troops. Eventually, they get hold of this group that killed his family and entire village, and the discussion goes, what are they gonna do with them. Some want to burn them, etc. I don`t remember exactly what happens, but I think the nazis are killed. THEN follows that scene where he is burning papers, documents etc (it`s not at the end of the war), and he finds that picture, and the whole scenes-going-backwards-things, etc, where he, eventually, sees Hitler as a little boy, and can`t bring himself to fire on it. This move is a classic, and is used in film studies around the world, it`s a fantastic film. I think it can be bought here:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091251/
...and yes, I agree with you both. But...wheres your imagination? Ok, let me ask you this one, horrible question: This is the most extreme scenario, and it`s in this we find the truth about ourselves: Do you have children? I do. Imagine someone doing the most horrible thing you can imagine, to them. Would you not want revenge? I would. Could you execute that revenge? I don`t know for sure, but I think I could.
And that`s where the truth about ourselves is.
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Narkissos
HR,
I'm very glad you found it. Actually I saw only a part of this movie years ago on a VHS somebody else recorded (poorly), and this scene just struck me. I had no idea about the director or title (not even the full story). Thank you!
About your question, OK let's imagine... Yes I think I'd kill in action. I'd kill to stop the killing, torture, etc. Perhaps I'd even kill when it is too late in immediate revenge... maybe I'd even kill a triumphant murderer later. But I am pretty sure I would find no consolation in any authority, cool-bloodedly, torturing or even killing a convict -- especially if such an authority could have prevented the crime and didn't. Remember, the "God" who would condemn Hitler (for instance) to the flames of Hell is supposed to have been there all the time, watching it all from heaven and not stopping it although he could. Such a "God" would have my first spit -- just before I join Adolf I guess...