obviously it was "exclusivist" since those who arrogantly rejected Noah and his message were EXCLUDED from the Ark, as you mentioned "the doors were shut", and so, duhh, the unbelieving people were thereby "excluded". what's "not in the Bible" about that??? God NEVER used conflicting sects and cults and groups in Bible history. He always used an organized centralized arrangement. In the case of Noah and his family it was small church, true, but that doesn't matter. whether it was 8 people or 800. the principle is there. Israel was centralized with the Levites and Judah and so forth. Levitical RULES binding on all the tribes, etc. First Century Christianity, read Acts 15, 16, decisions BINDING on all the local congregations. "The Holy Spirit AND WE OURSELVES (ELDERS AND APOSTLES)...." but the thing with Noah, I don't know, it's like you can't see what's so obvious and simple.
IF the story is true, then that means, logically and obviously, that those who did not follow Noah, and join in with him and his faith and obedience and activity, were DESTROYED BY GOD, excluded from the Ark of Salvation or "Church of Noah" at that time in history, and were condemned. Logically you know that people at that time, who did not listen to Noah, had their own belief in God, and even in the God of Enoch. Remember Enoch? who preached and "walked with God." And those people had ideas about Adam and Eve and Jehovah and their own personal beliefs. but they didn't line up with the only true religion at that time in history. listen, let's stop this. cuz you KNOW that people looked at Noah and his family as weird and cultic and presumptuous and "exclusivist" too. you really need Verses of Scripture to spell that out to you too?
when (IF THE STORY IS TRUE) it says that people didn't listen to Noah and were destroyed by God, because the world back then was so filthy and violent? so as it says in Ecclesiastes, there's nothing new under the sun. one thing that man learns from history that man never learns from history. and you're living proof. cuz you do the same foolish lame-brain thing that that pre-Flood Noachian world did. reject logic and truth and purity and structure and authority, despite the miserable mess of a world around you. thinking that God is ok with all religions or personal choices, "as long as you don't hurt anyone." by the way, you don't even believe the Bible. so what credibility do you have with anyting regarding this anyway?? you already admitted that you doubt the Noah's Ark and Flood accounts. so what do you hold to? nothing. because if you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything. ultimately. again, if the doors were shut, as the Bible DOES say clearly, then how is that NOT "exclusivism" and how is that not "only true religion and arrangement at the time in history"?? don't say "the Bible does not say that", when it's obviously there. God destroyed the world that did not listen to Noah and his family-church. but saved only Noah and his family in that humungous Ark. what further proof do you need??
Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?
by hubert 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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sweetscholar
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seattleniceguy
sweetscholar,
You sound like someone I used to know. Does the word "lemonpie" mean anything to you?
Thanks,
SNG -
Abaddon
doofdaddywell you're a relativist who believes in situation ethics
Wow, sweetscholar sure told you!!generally speaking APOSTATE JUDAS-LIKE AND PHARISAICAL HERETICAL SNAKES !!!
Ah, the voice of reason.
in a very rude arrogant insincere non-humble way though of course
Back at you. Hypocrite.
When you stop being such a super-fine apostle, realise your activities and behaviour are as rancid as that of a street-corner self-sanctifying Pharasee, get the beam out of your eye and stop swallowing camels, then, and only then, might you be worth any regard.
As for your literalistic, conservative and reactionary paradigm towards the Christian faith... two hundred years seems to have escaped your attention.
Biblical chronology lost credibility 150 years ago with the discovery that ancient civilisation existed before and after the Flood without a break - let alone the comprehension of the great age of the Earth that the new science of geology bought. If the Flood patently wasn't a literal event, what in the Bible was? Since then this view of the Bible's chronological accuracy and mytholigised events has only gained greater credibility. You can see trees growing in California that were growing when (according to the Bible) Noah was a young man. The Pyramids and trees seem to have shrugged of a 'global' flood quite well, eh?
Your limited and closed-minded interpretation shackles your beliefs to the ankles of the goats herded by the bronze-age people who wrote your Holy Book. You take on cultural superstition and bias and call it god's word, when the evidence that it ISN'T is as plain as the nose on your face. That's blasphemous, isn't it?
But to accept that it ISN'T literal means you also have to give up feeling your are right, and that you know what will happen 'cause it says it in the Bible. You need that security, as the rage at being contradicted or lampooned for the way you present yourself show. So you persist in your error, and we get to hear the noise your finger-nails make as you slide down the sheer face of reasonablness and good-will that stand in your way in posts like this. Can't be mad at you for it; dogs bark, it is in their nature.
You are so into worshipping a book, little black marks on dead trees, because it makes you feel secure and superior, you lose sight of the fact the book is human in origin and in error, and not a magic token that can save you. It isn't what is in the book that can save you. It is what is in YOU. Where is your love?
Maybe if you worshipped god as it is or might be, rather than as you would like it to be (or rather as bronze-age goat herds imagined it), you'd be able to find it?
Take responsibility for your actions; you earnt this response.
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sweetscholar
there's something in the Bible that DOES indicate the reporting of preaching and time and whatever. Read carefully the Gospels. sending them out by twos. there's some stuff there. you only see what you want to see anyway. here it is, in a general sense: Mark 6:7-30: "Now He summoned the twelve, and He initiated sending them out two by two,...Further He said to them 'Wherever you enter into a home, stay there until you go out of that place. And wherever a place will not hear you, on going out from there skake the dust of your feet of a witness to them.' So they set out and PREACHED in order that people might repent....And the apostles gathered together before Jesus and REPORTED to Him ALL ("all" means "all", like what happened, where it happened, when it happened, and how much "time" involved) things they had done and TAUGHT." reporting their preaching activity. read the Bible MORE CAREFULLY AND THOUGHTFULLY AND HONESTLY AND CONSCIENTIOUSLY than you have. Luke 9:10: "And when the apostles RETURNED they RECOUNTED ("reCOUNT"? "count time" too? hmmm) to Him what things they had DONE" (in the preaching work). the point, Huby, is that there is at least SOME Scriptural basis for 'REPORTING' time and activity that was done in preaching Christ's Kingdom to neighbors and public and house to house. you just never saw it. are you sincere about this? in other words, are you willing to concede that maybe JUST MAYBE what I just showed you and expounded might have SOME validity to this "time" thing that you keep griping about? the point is, and this is undeniable, the example that's there is that they were sent by "twos" and preached and taught, and "REPORTED" and "RECOUNTED" in an organized way what was done and "all things" that took place in that preaching activity. how boot dat? anymore questions? (I've read the Bible over 20 times in 4 different languages. the only reason I say that, cuz I know it sounds boasting, is to show you that I did not just fall of a banana boat yesterday, and that I do NOT just buy and eat everything the Watchtower writes like a robot. my thinking and analyses just happens to agree like 99.999999% with the publishing arm of JWs. and I know the Bible pretty well. and I keep on learning new things all the time. I know who God the Father is and His Beloved Son and Messiah is. and what the Kingdom is. it's this simple. Only Christ's Blood and Kingdom are mankind's only hope. only hope out of death and the grave. not the UN, not Bush, not elections, votes, banks, protests, politics, Hollywood, or whatever else. can we get an Amen to that? again, there was "reporting" and "counting" with the preaching apostles, so why not follow that example overall??
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Sunspot
you actually raised a couple of good points and questions (in a very rude arrogant insincere non-humble way though of course)
Keeping in mind of course, that SS has been nothing but kind and mild-spirited, handling the truth aright....before all onlookers...
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ellderwho
Sweetscholar: Read Acts 15-19 and read and grasp that the TRUE Christian Church of the First Century was ORGANIZED and CENTRALIZED, with decisions and TEACHINGS by the "Elders and Apostles" (the Governing Body at that time) that were BINDING on the rest of the local congregations.
What was the name of this organization after the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD?
EW
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sweetscholar
was Christ always "mild" when yelling and calling religious hypocrites "sons of Satan" and "vipers" and "full of corruption"??? what about Stephen when he was dissing big time the Jews in front of him "hypocrites, which one of the prophets did your forefathers NOT persecute?"" and Paul called them "ministers of satan". one thing that I notice, which is so transparant, is that you'll pick at me and my supposed "tones" and leave alone the rude arrogant dopey tones of the people that YOU AGREE WITH !!! it's laughable. and biased like crazy. so convenient. you think your compadres have so sweet and perfect and loving and gentle in words and tones?? is that a joke? but you won't say one word against them, cuz why? cuz, you agree with them and want to present yourself united with them. I know human nature and human hypocrisy only too well. did I say that I was necessarily perfect? but it's a losing man's argument when all you can do is harp on and exaggerate "tones" (real or imagined) and not really honestly address the ACTUAL POINTS being made. and then to give a pass at the rude obnoxious crap that's put out by your fellow anti-JWs makes your own credibility even lower. even if you do have a little bit of a point about my manner. (though of course, as I said, I could be worse. you don't know how I am with others that are not demonized apostate types, but are more neutral. I'm way more gentle and patient than I would be with guys like you. yes, it's true, not all who go on this site are necessarily apostate types necessarily. and I could come off a bit more seasoned with salt and tactful. granted. but let's not forget that Christ and His Apostles did not always pussy-foot around. so there's a balance. and again, try to focus more on the actual specific points. rather than dogmatically whining and harping on my language or tones evey second. cuz the whining and complaints get old and tired and transparant after a while. but your point is taken. bye.
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AuldSoul
sweetscholar: You raised the specter of the "Governing Body" in Jerusalem. Have you considered carefully the account from Paul's perspective? He learned nothing from those men and he considered many of them as actively seeking to subvert the souls of the ones who had been running well. But let's you and I stick with Acts for now. I consider more than just the verse or two the Watchtower wants me to consider, especially if I am trying to apprehend whether there is a model being set for future organizational structure.
15 And certain men came down from Ju·de´a and began to teach the brothers: “Unless YOU get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, YOU cannot be saved.” 2 But when there had occurred no little dissension and disputing by Paul and Bar´na·bas with them, they arranged for Paul and Bar´na·bas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and older men in Jerusalem regarding this dispute.
3 Accordingly, after being conducted partway by the congregation, these men continued on their way through both Phoe·ni´cia and Sa·mar´i·a, relating in detail the conversion of people of the nations, and they were causing great joy to all the brothers. 4 On arriving in Jerusalem they were kindly received by the congregation and the apostles and the older men, and they recounted the many things God had done by means of them. 5 Yet, some of those of the sect of the Pharisees that had believed rose up from their seats and said: “It is necessary to circumcise them and charge them to observe the law of Moses.”
6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: “Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; 8 and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.”
12 At that the entire multitude became silent, and they began to listen to Bar´na·bas and Paul relate the many signs and portents that God did through them among the nations. 13 After they quit speaking, James answered, saying: “Men, brothers, hear me. 14 Sym´e·on has related thoroughly how God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written, 16 ‘After these things I shall return and rebuild the booth of David that is fallen down; and I shall rebuild its ruins and erect it again, 17 in order that those who remain of the men may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, 18 known from of old.’ 19 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had in city after city those who preach him, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.”
22 Then the apostles and the older men together with the whole congregation favored sending chosen men from among them to Antioch along with Paul and Bar´na·bas, namely, Judas who was called Bar´sab·bas and Silas, leading men among the brothers; 23 and by their hand they wrote:
“The apostles and the older men, brothers, to those brothers in Antioch and Syria and Ci·li´cia who are from the nations: Greetings! 24 Since we have heard that some from among us have caused YOU trouble with speeches, trying to subvert YOUR souls, although we did not give them any instructions, 25 we have come to a unanimous accord and have favored choosing men to send to YOU together with our loved ones, Bar´na·bas and Paul, 26 men that have delivered up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We are therefore dispatching Judas and Silas, that they also may report the same things by word. 28 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, 29 to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU!”So, the scene opens with certain ones from Judea (Jerusalem) coming down to ... where, exactly? And they were teaching the brothers they had to be circumcised and observe the law of Moses. This becomes important for the remaining verses to be understood properly. Paul and Barnabas were teaching one thing, and the men from Judea were teaching something else. They disputed with Paul and Barnabas regarding this, but that didn't satisfy them.
Now, picture the scene as though it were today. A few Circuit and District overseers leave the U.S. and go to another country where wearing beards is the custom and tell the missionaries working there that they must shave, all the brothers must shave, and they must observe the styles of dress we have here in the States. The local brothers argue at length with these U.S. brothers, but the U.S. brothers are unwilling to budge. We are going to use this analogy throughout.
Those who had been of the sect of the Pharisees correspond to the COs and DOs in the analogy. They want to enforce a regulation with no Scriptural principle backing the regulation. So a group of the missionaries and some local brothers go to the U.S. to see about this matter. They don't just write a letter, they physically make the trip. Are they going to ask about the matter, do you suppose? Read Galatians 1 and 2 then you tell me if Paul and Barnabas went up to ask about the matter.
Peter calls the Mosaic Law a yoke, that neither they nor their forefathers could bear. So, despite what is repeatedly in print from the Society, the issue was not circumcision. The issue was whether the new converts had to obey the Mosaic Law. Circumcision was not a burden that was unbearable by the Israelites, so Peter must have been referring to the Law, as represented in some of the verses by circumcision.
Who was in on (a) the decision reached, (b) the decision of who to send word by, and (c) the wording of the letter? Was it just the apostles and the older men? In a closed door session? Or did the whole congregation have a hand in it? Read 15:22,23 again. What does it say? That doesn't sound like modern day "Governing Body" decisions to me.
Once you have considered these points, I have two questions for you:
(1) Was the decision reached in agreement with the previous word from Judea, or was it directly contradictory?
(2) Given 1 John 2:26-29, why would the Faithful and Discreet Slave need a Governing Body?
I look forward to your considered replies.
AuldSoul
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AuldSoul
sweetscholar: why is that whole thing in Acts 14,15,16 called the First "Christian Council"?
Because almost every church with a heirarchical authority structure traces their foundation for authority to those chapters.
Does that make them correct? Which of their claims to authority is valid? Is it possible that none of their claims are valid because it would put men in positions of dominance over the spirituality of other men? Is it possible we aren't supposed to trust men?
Is it possible that we should be trusting something else?
1 John 2:26-29 — These things I write YOU about those who are trying to mislead YOU. And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him. So now, little children, remain in union with him, that when he is made manifest we may have freeness of speech and not be shamed away from him at his presence. If YOU know that he is righteous, YOU gain the knowledge that everyone who practices righteousness has been born from him.
Why do you believe God needs an organization and cannot reach people through a work of spirit motivating people to speak each one to his neighbor? Do you think God needs a Bureaucracy to tally my activity in the field?
AuldSoul
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myelaine
6 And the apostles and the older men gathered together to see about this affair. 7 Now when much disputing had taken place, Peter rose and said to them: “Men, brothers, YOU well know that from early days God made the choice among YOU that through my mouth people of the nations should hear the word of the good news and believe; 8 and God, who knows the heart, bore witness by giving them the holy spirit, just as he did to us also. 9 And he made no distinction at all between us and them, but purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now, therefore, why are YOU making a test of God by imposing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our forefathers nor we were capable of bearing? 11 On the contrary, we trust to get saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way as those people also.”
AMEN