you reaise some deep issues. and I promise (if you're sincere about this whole thing with the spirit of learning from the matter, as I myself am trying to do as well, instead of a puffy huffy I know I'm right attitude). let's try to study this together in a congenial spirit. cuz I agree it's not always so black and white every second. but this is the point (and I can't get too deep into the matter at present, but soon I will): IT SAYS CLEARLY IN ACTS 15:2 that it was NOT this silly Baptist-like democratic (from the bottom up) thing, but a THEOCRATIC top down orderly thing, "APOSTLES AND ELDERS" not just any average Christian witness and congregant. I know that Korah-like (why is it in Jude as a warning for true Christians that whole matter with Korah, Dathan, and Abiram, who rebelled and thought too that they didn't have to humbly subit to Jehovah's appointed LEADERSHIP ??? Jude makes the warning for Christians too. I wonder why, if it's all independent Baptist Baloney ways that are ok with God. hmmmm Jude 11, compare 2 Peter 3:7). Also, I don't think that the beloved Watchtower said that it's ONLY "circumcision", but I agree with you, the Mosaic Law in general, but TYPIFIED AT THE TIME with the circumcision issue. cuz that's specifically what was brought up. but notice PLEASE. and yes Roman Catholics have used the same argument for THEIR church (but the only problem is that Romanism is so pagan and warped and worldly and corrupt that they can't be God's true church), that it says "the Holy Spirit AND US" meaning the Apostles and Elders, "saw fit to add nothing unto you BUT THIS, abstain from blood, fornication, idolatry, etc". not just "oh the Holy Spirit guides me individually" blah blah blah. especially nto in the Last Days. in pivotal times in history, the Lord Yahawah NEVER worked in such a chaotic conflicting confusing way, but always in an organized centralized arrangement. You'll tell me that Mosaic Israel was not organized and arranged and binding????? Read Exodus and Leviticus a bit more closely why don't you. Noah told his family EXACTLY what needed to be done as far as the measurements of the Ark and the food and the lower beasts, etc. You see it in Acts and in the Letters for the True Christian Church too. First Century Biblical Christianity does NOT resemble the Southern Baptist Convention or the "Independent Baptist Churches" or the "United Pentecostals" or Presbyterians who fellowship with Lutherans on committees. I'm not saying that it resembed the elaborate weird heirarchy of the Roman Catholic Church either. You don't see the terms "cardinals" or "arch-bishops" or "pope" or "his holiness" or "father McNeal" or "diocese" or "Mass" or "Vatican" or "Holy See" or whatever else. but again, it was NOT so loose and independent and chaotic in the first century either. Paul and Peter and James and John directed things, buddy. human nature tends to want to rebel against authority. people never learn from history. "do not even say a greeting to such a man" is for what then? "do not murmur" is for what then? "beware the rebellious talk of Korah" is for what then??? "BE OBEDIENT TO THOSE TAKING THE LEAD IS FOR WHAT THEN"???? son, it's NOT just "one or two verses". it's a host of passages and principles, from both "Testaments". but anyway, as I said, I appreciate your thoughts, though I disagree with like 98% of what you're saying. and I'll get more into the specifics of what you brought up at later dates, as I do more research both in the Word of God, and in some dictionaries and volumes that I have, both Witness and non-Witness stuff. but the stuff I said so far is really enough for you and others to undestand (Acts 15:2) that it was not this free-for-all thing that you're saying, but leadership and direction and central oversight, with decisions that were BINDING on all the local congregations. there's no getting around those hard stubborn facts. not matter how much Scripture juggling or twisting or smooth sophistry you may use at times. but we'll talk more about it. thanks for correspondence. peace.
Is repititive imprinting of ideas a primary cult tactic?
by hubert 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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myelaine
"For My yoke is easy and My burden light." says the Lord. (Matt 11:30)
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. (1 John 5:3) plus... But to you in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, and who have not known "the depths of Satan", as they call them, I will put on you no other burden. says the Lord. (Rev 2:24) -
sweetscholar
you're point with that obviously is that it says not just "apostles and elders" but also "together with the whole congregation" and from that you surmise that there was no centralized authority. jumping the gun a bit I see. cuz notice what that part was talking about, not a heavy doctrinal decision, but in "favoring sending chosen men from among them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas." So in a sense it's just the elders there REPRESENTING the whole congregation anyway, and if the the whole congregation had a part in that, it's not specifically in that Verse referring actually to the circumcision issue decision, and the other things mentioned a few verses later.
You cannot deny that it's the "elders and apostles" that are emphasized throughout these chapters in the matter of crucial decision making and directing and, as some might say, "imposing" stuff on the rest of the congregations. 23 "The Apostles and Elders (governing or leading body) to the BROTHERS in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are of the nations (Gentiles):...For the Holy Spirit AND WE OURSELVES (not the congregations in general, come off it already, but referring specifically in that immediate context to the Apostles and Elders of the First Century) have favored adding no further burden to you, EXCEPT THESE NECESSSSSSSAAAARRRRYYYY THINGS (not suggestions or optional things, but NECESSARY THINGS!) to keep abstaining from things stangled, and idols, and blood, and fornication."
it was specifically there the Governing Body Elders and NOT all the congregations deciding that. top down, not bottom up, which is why your Baptist Blockheads love to have it. democracy did NOT exist in the first century church. not really. it was more THEOcratic (top down). look throughout all of Paul's Letters, and James'. directions were given. there was no arguing it. they were binding on those local churches. Corinth, Rome, Ephesus, Galatia, Philipi, Thessalonika, and so forth. the point is that you believe what you WANT to believe, not necessarily what all the internal Biblical evidence (both "Testaments") actually FULLY indicate. people have this Korah-like rebellious independent-minded attitude, and the Bible warns agains that why?? FOR A REASON. look in the mirror and look at all your writings about this subject, and you can see why. later.
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sweetscholar
Ignoring other Verses of Scripture is typical of the silly apostates and the rebellious apostate types. do you conveniently overlook the Passages in the Gospels where Christ CLEARLY indicated, as you call it, "drudge and tension and pressure"??? "agonize to get in the narrow door" and "narrow road to life" (in other words not all that easy and convenient every single second) and ahhh "pick up your torture stake" (not portable CD player or IPod or tennis racket) "and follow Me continually" and Paul said "bear His reproach" and Peter: "if the righteous are BARELY saved, what chance do the ungodly and sinner have?" easy to forget all Verses of Scripture that deal with the matter, honestly. typical of the deranged Korah-like apostates. read the Bible all the way through more carefully, why don't you. without using Jehuda's pen-knife, when it suits you. you think Noah and his family had it all that easy?? wake up. and Christ said "just like the days of Noah" (Matthes 24,25, etc) so there's a balance to this "easy light load" stuff. there are people who find "refreshment" in Jehovah's congregation and peace and love and unity, not perfect of course, but free of worries that the unbelieving world generally have. Bush and Terrorism? God's Kingdom, hunny. later.
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Apostanator
Why do I feel like I'm at the Kingdum Hall where someome who is talking...is trying to convince themselves that they have the truth???
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seattleniceguy
if you're sincere about this whole thing with the spirit of learning from the matter, as I myself am trying to do as well, instead of a puffy huffy I know I'm right attitude
Wow! The expression "take a look in the mirror" comes to mind...
there are people who find "refreshment" in Jehovah's congregation and peace and love and unity, not perfect of course, but free of worries that the unbelieving world generally have.
Well, if the refreshed and loving attitude you're showcasing here is any indication of what I would find in "Jehovah's congregation," I will keep a very safe distance, thank you much. :-)
SNG
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sweetscholar
I said like a few times already that this forum is different. so what is your deal anyway? ever a witness? ever studied with them? why is that you constantly dogmatically harp on my "tone" (which could be actually worse) instead of really addressing or seeing the actual specific points raised?? that's a convenient dodge, son. and very transparant after a while. but really, why are you so bothered by that? when that's not even the crux of what I'm doing anyway. I'm going into matter-of-fact substantive things and expositions. yet what do you choose to always harp on? my manner and tone that you find so offensive. yet you give a free pass I notice to the really rude blunt obnoxious ex or anti-JWs. funny that. all you ever do in response to what I've written is whine about my tone. that says more about you than about what I'm writing. give that a rest already. I already admitted that I was not necessarily as gentle as I could have been every syllable. but so what?
NONE OF THAT NEGATES THE SUM AND SUBSTANCE OF THE ACTUAL POINTS I WAS BIBLICALLY AND HISTORICALLY MAKING. is that so hard to see? I guess. but you'd rather focus on irrelevent matters. did I curse or threaten anyone? NO. so how bad really was I?? and again, did Christ call people names in the Bible?? yes He did. He called a Greek pagan woman a "dog" in the Bible. and called Pharisees "hypocrites" and "sons of the Devil". wow. I guess if that's the case, if you wannt be totally consistent, you'll "stay a safe distance away" from Christ too. whatever. anyway, try (if you can) looking at the actual points made. thank you. -
sweetscholar
I said like a few times already that this forum is different. so what is your deal anyway? ever a witness? ever studied with them? why is that you constantly dogmatically harp on my "tone" (which could be actually worse) instead of really addressing or seeing the actual specific points raised?? that's a convenient dodge, son. and very transparant after a while. but really, why are you so bothered by that? when that's not even the crux of what I'm doing anyway. I'm going into matter-of-fact substantive things and expositions. yet what do you choose to always harp on? my manner and tone that you find so offensive. yet you give a free pass I notice to the really rude blunt obnoxious ex or anti-JWs. funny that. all you ever do in response to what I've written is whine about my tone. that says more about you than about what I'm writing. give that a rest already. I already admitted that I was not necessarily as gentle as I could have been every syllable. but so what?
NONE OF THAT NEGATES THE SUM AND SUBSTANCE OF THE ACTUAL POINTS I WAS BIBLICALLY AND HISTORICALLY MAKING. is that so hard to see? I guess. but you'd rather focus on irrelevent matters. did I curse or threaten anyone? NO. so how bad really was I?? and again, did Christ call people names in the Bible?? yes He did. He called a Greek pagan woman a "dog" in the Bible. and called Pharisees "hypocrites" and "sons of the Devil". wow. I guess if that's the case, if you wannt be totally consistent, you'll "stay a safe distance away" from Christ too. whatever. anyway, try (if you can) to look at the actual points made. thank you. -
defd
Sweetscholar you will see if you already have not, that ALOT of people here are like that. What can we expect, this is a anti JW site. There are some however who are really nice and have geniune complaints and resentment that has caused them to back away. FIND those. You will be very influencial and helpful.
D.
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seattleniceguy
sweetscholar,
I haven't responded to any of your points because arguing from the Bible is meaningless to me. It would be like if someone tried to prove a point to you by quoting the Koran. "See, it's all here in black and white!" they would say. But that doesn't mean anything if you don't accept the Koran as the voice of truth. Similarly, I believe that the Bible is just a bunch of ancient religious writings, so carring on about this or that scripture doesn't particularly mean anything. You might as well be quoting Garfield the Cat.
At any rate, my posts have not been to debate with you - as that would clearly be a pointless endeavor - but merely to offer suggestions or point out ironies, such as your suggestion that we put aside our "huffy puffy I know I'm right attitude." I mean, really, you have to be able to imagine how seeing this coming from you is pretty damn funny.
Cheers,
SNG