by hubert 144 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I haven't responded to any of your points because arguing from the Bible is meaningless to me. It would be like if someone tried to prove a point to you by quoting the Koran. "See, it's all here in black and white!"
I know this was directed to someone else but i have to say that you have a good point. If you do not believe in the bible as an authority than it would be pointless to prove a point from it.
D.
Ah, yes, the one point I can concede.
Yes, I'll hand it to you, the Bible contains accounts of Jesus calling people names. So I suppose you're showing off your Christ-like personality whenever you call people names. Awesome.
The only reason I've pointed it out at all is because it's kind of funny. I'm not harping on your tone. You can call me names all day long, I don't care. You should be aware, however, that name-calling doesn't get you anywhere in a debate. All it does is make you look foolish.
I mean, think about it. Let's say some people are having a nice conversation over coffee. You burst into the room frothing at the mouth, shouting and screaming, throwing things around. Is this something an adult does? Or is it something a child does? You won't get any respect unless you act like an adult. That's why no one is respecting you here.
SNG
ok. you seem reasonable and thank you for telling me your position. you don't have any real belief in the Bible as God's Word or as even probably God's Word. you're honest enough to tell me. (and thank you defd for stepping in to). I wonder why you're interested in this site though, because most people here presumably professingly have SOME kind of belief (even if it's a distorted belief) in the Bible as God's Word. not all do but most I would say. also, I have to say that your point would be stronger about how I've been tone-wise and "name-calling" if that's all I did. if you carefully analyze it, that's not even mostly what I've done. I've expounded and gone into technical doctrinal historical things. don't worry. most JWs are not as gruff or "junk yard dog" ish as I'm appearing here. understand though, that I really am taking a chance even being on this website. I would never come off even half as blunt with someone like you if I approached you on the street and struck up a conversation with you about world conditions or God or the Bible or whatever. honestly. so for that, I apologize. I can only imagine how it must have appeared to you. can you do me a favor though. can you try to take that with a grain of salt though? I thought you were either an ex witness or a disgrunted witness student type or at least someone who has been so swayed by apostates all your life. if you entered an assembly of JWs, it would be warm and sweet. for the most part. but it's unfair to demand perfection from anybody. even if JWs did have the Truth. Moses was not perfect, and neither was Saint Paul. but anyway, that's basically it. I'll try hard for the sake of people like you to tone it down a few degrees. hopefully you won't have hostile feelings towards me anymore. you seem ok. nobody's perfect. but one question. why don't you believe the Bible? there's good evidence and documentation for it. and also why the interest in this site? holler.
well I guess you didn't like my tone all the time in my messages and postings. well ok. perhaps there's a point there. but that should not be used as a convenient dodge either. my tone could be worse. did I curse or threaten?? so how bad really was I?? also, that's not mostly what I've done. if you carefully analyse it, I've gone into technical and doctrinal and historical things. matter-of-fact and straightforwardly. and remember, just to balance things out. Christ, Stephen, Paul, and Elijah called them "names" like "hypocrite" "sons of Satan" "false apostles" "ministers of Satan" "white-washed graves, full of corruption" "snakes" "children of Gehenna". "wicked men" etc. but your point is taken. seasoned with salt. but I do not go off like this with regular people on the street. on this site is mostly apostates or apostate types or religious hypocrites and scoundrels big time. I hate to say that but it's true. anyway, that's it for now. also, try focusing more on the sum and substance of what I've been saying, rather than whining and harping about my tone so much. because that's ultimatley the point anyway. I could be the most abrasive guy on the planet, and still be telling you the truth. think about it. (and also, I'm NOT the most abrasive guy in the world. believe that. ever heard Dr Peter S Ruckman or Robert Morey???) peace.
the real main reason that lack of respect from most people is what I'm receiving is not so much my tone but the fact that I'm defending the Watchtower and JWs theology based on Scripture. I guarantee you, I can pretty much assure you that if I came off the same way, BUT ONLY IN OPPOSITION TO JWs AND THE WATCHTOWER, I would not be getting these disrespectful things from most people. and also, it hasn't been all disrespect, but just pointed discussions, with certain people. debating or discussing some theological or ecclesiastical things. but sorry to say, that my tone is maybe only 10% of the reason for general "disrespect" as you call it. it's mainly because of what position I'm on with this whole matter. believe that. cuz as defd said, this is basically an anti-JW site. so as he said, what can I expect? let's get real here.
guarantee you, I can pretty much assure you that if I came off the same way, BUT ONLY IN OPPOSITION TO JWs AND THE WATCHTOWER, I would not be getting these disrespectful things from most people
So true, my brother so true. I had a hard time with that for awhile. Until I figured this place out. Stay awhile my friend and as Jesus said....Be as innocent as a dove but as CAUTIOUS as a serpent.
D.
Hi Rebel8, I looked at your site with interest, but dont really feel it is unbiassed. For example your paragraph on baptism.
Watchtower 1988 March 15 p.13 Trust in Jehovah Leads to Dedication and Baptism
A person must leave his former way of life and dedicate himself to the Watchtower Society upon baptism. Baptism is the most important day of one’s life, as it symbolizes leaving the past.
Watchtower 1989 January 15 p.13 What Prevents You From Getting Baptized?
JWs must pledge loyalty to the Watchtower Societ
The article you refer to doesnt' say that anywhere, and I know we KNOW this is what it entails, but I think we have to be careful not to be as vague as the WTS when we are directing peoples attention to the faults etc. When we get baptised on no occasion do we say we are dedicating ourselves to the Watchtower Society. Not a criticism, just my point of view, I tend to turn off from ex JW websites that put things across in a way I know wasn't how it was. And I feel you are not getting to the very people you want to if you put stuff on there that is not backed up.
Poppy x
Poppy there is alot of that going on in here.
D.
sweetscholar,
My interest in this site is primarily due to the fact that some of my family are Witnesses.
I am aware of the evidence that Witnesses talk about which supposedly proves that the Bible is God's word. I've read the Witness books on the topic and looked at a few web sites. The problem is, the evidence is extraordinarily weak. Did you know that people who believe in the Koran have similar books of evidence that the Koran is God's word? They even have almost identical headings: prophecy, scientific accuracy, and so on. And yet I'd venture that somehow you do not believe in the Koran in spite of this "overwhelming evidence."
but I do not go off like this with regular people on the street. on this site is mostly apostates or apostate types or religious hypocrites and scoundrels big time. I hate to say that but it's true. anyway, that's it for now. also, try focusing more on the sum and substance of what I've been saying, rather than whining and harping about my tone so much. because that's ultimatley the point anyway. I could be the most abrasive guy on the planet, and still be telling you the truth. think about it.
[ bolding mine ]
I thought about it. Now here's something for you to think about. You've made an excellent point: It doesn't matter who a person is - their points should be considered on their own merit. Even the devil can tell the truth, as the saying goes. I agree with that. We must examine any claim on its own merit, without regard to who the person is who is making the claim.
Now here's where the contradiction comes in. In the same breath that you talk about looking at an argument on its merits, you dismiss most of the others on this site as "apostate types or religious hypocrites and scoundrels big time." Do you see the problem here? It doesn't matter whether you think someone is the runt of a litter of piglets. According to you yourself, that is immaterial. What do you have to say about their ideas?
That's the whole problem with labels - they shut down thought. You've made it clear that if you don't like what someone says, you just toss out the "apostate" label instead of responding to their argument. You have done this many, many times on this thread. The Watchtower Society employs this technique all the time. Don't like an argument? Just say that it's "apostate reasoning" and you don't have to respond to its actual content.
In other words, it's not about the other party getting thicker skin. We're all adults here. We can handle a stranger on the other side of the internet calling us names. But people won't waste their time debating with a bombastic blowhard who doesn't take the time to listen to the other side.
Lest you again say that I'm harping on your tone, I'm not. I'm trying to look at what underlies it. Abrasiveness is fine. Dismissiveness of ideas you don't like (via namecalling in your case) is not logical, will not win anyone over to the Christ, and certainly won't win you many friends. Anyway, I'm sorry if this has turned into a sermon. Hope you stick around and learn lots.
SNG
My interest in this site is primarily due to the fact that some of my family are Witnesses.
Were you not also a Witness at one point in your life?
D.
