REVIEW OF JCS "BIG NEWS" ARTICLE

by Oroborus21 103 Replies latest watchtower scandals

  • jst2laws
    jst2laws

    Steve2,

    I'd be interested in the source of the "50 percent cave in" and accept blood figure. So very easily said, far less easily verified. The figure sounds more like conjecture to me. At best, it would require very wide sampling of JW behaviour from a wide number of hospitals and Emergency Departments around the globe. It's amazing how quickly figures drawn out of the air can solidify into something that seems reasonable and research-based but is little more than conjecture.

    I appreciate your apprehension. While this figure was not pulled from the air it was not presented as 'research based' either. As I said it was "told to me", and I went on to say "Even if this is inaccurately high" so as to not imply it was the result of a study. The comment came (indirectly to me) from a non JW medical doctor who was personally familiar with many JWs in such circumstances. When I heard this comment I immediately thought of the WTs insistence years ago that a JW in such a condition of facing death or transfusion NOT be left alone with medical professionals, that a JW advocate stay with the patient. It was clear the WT's concern was the very thing this doctor had observed. We were told as elders that this "caving in" was happening far too often. It would be even worse to find out it was only 20 or 30 percent who caved in and the others stood their ground with doubts about the theology but with conviction that the recommended transfusion was was terribly dangerous and that alternative therapies were safer and just as effective. That was MY BELIEF as a former JW until recently, because I too had been mislead by the WT's misrepresentation of the secular facts. How about you? Steve

  • jeanniebeanz
    jeanniebeanz
    So don't attack Oronbus, because the WTBS is going to do worse to the article. Attack his assumptions and arguments. Attacking him is no different than those attacking Barbara directly.

    Enigma,

    I agree with you. I am hoping that my post was not taken as a personal attack on Oro, but rather, a pointing out of the fact that his assumptions are colored by his personal opinions regarding the witness faith.

    Our conclusions are all swayed by whatever 'truths' we hold dear. Oro is no exception.

    Oro is harsh in his critique of the essay, but the WTBTS will be terrifying in their attack on it should it go to court. We all know that. Their financial ability to fight a battle like this for a long period of time, coupled with the fact that this would be a series of ground breaking lawsuits would make most lawyers cut and run like a scalded cat. But it only takes one successful suit to turn the tides.

    I appreciate the views of Oro whether or not he or anyone else realizes it. It is valuable. However, I do not want people to come away feeling like the essay is not an important piece of work on the basis of one biased lawyers opinion.

    Let's have a little hope here, people.

    Jean

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    It would be even worse to find out it was only 20 or 30 percent who caved in and the others stood their ground with doubts about the theology but with conviction that the recommended transfusion was was terribly dangerous and that alternative therapies were safer and just as effective. That was MY BELIEF as a former JW until recently, because I too had been mislead by the WT's misrepresentation of the secular facts. How about you?

    I think you're right, that's the picture JWs by and large have, as a result of misrepresentation of medical data. And the scandals on "contaminated blood" (HIV or hepatitis) have only reinforced this conviction.

    But by signing the blood card doesn't a JW explicitly state that s/he acknowledges the principle of increased risk for no-blood surgery / treatment? True, in a JW mind that can be only a diplomatic statement (because s/he believes that the organisation knows better and that in any case Jehovah will protect them). But this can become quite a problem in court I guess. How can one prove that misrepresentation led him/her to believe in lower risk when s/he declared accepting higher risk?

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    I agree, Jeanniebeanz. And I submit that the theory technically only need be good enough to GO TO COURT with it. The Society wants to avoid that at all costs on this particular issue, they know they would be crucified in the court of public opinion.

    "Crucifixion" is anathema to them.

    Public opinion is something any growth-minded organization cares a lot about, for very good reason.

    AuldSoul

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    How can one prove that misrepresentation led him/her to believe in lower risk when s/he declared accepting higher risk?


    I'm not sure what you are suggesting, Narkissos. JWs sign a card that says that there is an increased risk due to non-acceptance of transfusion, but their blood brochure misrepresents the situation to so great a degree that the Witnesses who sign the card actually believe they are protecting themselves from increased risk.

    It could create problems, alright. But not for the claimant. Any number of Jehovah's Witnesses can be marched in to rebut testimony, and they can be called with no opportunity for the defendant to coach them. What will these say regarding the medical risks of blood?

    The Society cannot afford to let this go to court. Ever. Even the chance of it is unacceptable.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • steve2
    steve2

    I appreciate Martin's and other's responses to my query about the 50 percent cave-in figure. I appreciate that the initial poster who presented this figure said that it was what he had been told by a non-JW doctor and was not advanced as research-based. In the language of research, this is referred to as 'an anecdotal report' which is fine.

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Greetings:

    AuldSoul: I just wanted to let you know that the reason I use the Esq. from time to time is because I was advised to by another well-known lawyer since I am a solo-attorney. It lets people know that should they have a legal question or issue they may approach me. If they are in California then I can advise them and if not I can give them information and tell them to see someone locally. Use of the Esq. is not in any way unethical. And certainly it is not practicing outside of the jurisdiction anymore than a doctor who uses Mr. Smith, M.D. is practicing medicine outside of the state where she is licensed by simply discussing general principles of medicine or standards of care, etc.

    Likewise, I don't use the "disclaimer" all of the time nor is it necessary. Some lawyers do for safety's sake. In posts where it seems to me obvious that I am not giving legal advice I do not provide it. With Marvin's question, I was unsure if he might have been asking his question because he has a situation himself and was asking for legal advise so I deemed it prudent to use a disclaimer in my answer to his question.

    All of my posts that touch upon legal issues such as the one at hand are based on my opinion in discussion of general legal principles or as in the case at hand, my interpretation of California law and its applicabilty or rather inapplicability elsewhere. As such this does not constitute legal advice or the formation of an attorney-client relationship or a reasonable expectation that my advice could be relied upon for legal action in a person's specific situation with anyone.

    If you think participating in a forum is enough to get a lawyer disbarred in California you really don't understand what is required.

    Cognitive-D: This is just your bad timing that you have to read so much of my hot-air (actually no one is making you read it all!) You may note that even though I have been a forum participant for years, my number of actual posts is quite modest. I would not consider myself a major player in this forum and I rarely post anything other than a quip here and there or a quick two-cents worth of opinion. This topic just happened to be blown up to be so important and then it turned out to be something related to my field, that I had more to say than usual.

    I really don't have more to say than the opinion I have already expressed and the analysis that I have already performed, so if anyone has specific questoins that they don't think others will care about it would be better to pm me as I am sure the forum is tired of not only hearing me but also fatigued with this topic and irked that my darn post keeps popping to the top.

    Ballistic: Thanks! I will try that in the future.

    Marvin: First very interesting points on page three of the thread. With regard to your questions perhaps we should exchange email since I am not sure that the forum is interested and also I need to know if you are asking about these things theoretically or for some other reason. PM me.

    TD: It is a fascinating consideration, that is the separating of the secularity from the belief. Whether it can be done bears discussing. I wished there would have more of this in the essay itself. I don't think it can be done with respect to the Society's literature, but I could be wrong. showing just how it could be done is what someone needs to do. Just saying that it is secular doesn't do it and probably wouldn't convince in a courtroom. And I am not convinced that even if such statements were deemed as secular that it would win the case for all of the reasons that I go into already.

    Enigma: Just a point of order, it is likely that if filed in state court the Society would at least try to have it removed to federal court on the basis of the constitutional issues raised. In so doing they may believe that federal law will work better for them and doing such also makes it more expensive for the plaintiff.

    Finally, with regard to this latest bit of discussion on the thread, would someone create a new thread taking a poll of whether the medical information was : highly influential, modestly influential, not influential in 1) either actually or prospectively choosing to refuse blood - in its prohibited forms and 2) choosing to become a witness

    And also ask a second question along the lines of who was really fooled by the Society's medical statements re:Blood. I for one was never fooled and always realized that the rest of the world were not idiots. Blood transfusions and so on may have some risks and concerns but they work and are useful, I think even Jehovah's Witnesses understand that, at least most Witness I know do. Maybe there are some really naive persons out there and plenty of stupid ones that disregard the facts but I haven't encountered many. All Witnesses that I know who say that they would not accept a blood transfusion do so as a matter of their faith not as a matter of medicine.

    -Eduardo Leaton Jr, Esq.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Eduardo,

    Due respect to your experience, but your friend may have advised you poorly. I personally know of a recent serious attempt made to disbar someone for posting to a discussion forum in their capacity as an attorney. The amount of arguable counsel/solicitation involved was considerably less than your examples here. I am not encouraging you to consider this out of peevishness, just out of concern. It seems maverick to me, but it is your life.

    Regarding medical doctors using M.D. to post medical advice or to discuss medical issues, they certainly are held accountable to their certifiying authorities for what they write in that capacity. Again, I don't know many doctors who post ANYTHING about medical issues in informal discussion forums in their professional capacity (they don't add M.D.) because they aren't examining a patient and do not know what they may be experiencing. Doctors have opened themselves up to suit and also disciplinary action by doing so, they generally avoid it. I don't understand why you used that analogy, since there is plenty on the books to dispute you without my needing to.

    Do I gather correctly that you were grasping and reached out to another profession with similar weight of word, without know for sure you were correct about their accountability? Do you think there are no medical doctors posting here?

    It is a friendly caution, and one that I strongly urge you to consider carefully. There is no harm in checking whether I am correct, and if I am it could spare you a lot of grief down the road. I have never practiced law in California, so you are correct about my ignorance regarding the Rules as they are applied in your state or the degree to which they would have to be offended against before action would take place, but there is no harm in checking to verify what your friend told you.

    AuldSoul

  • seesthesky
    seesthesky

    Auldsoul wrote:

    "I personally know of a recent serious attempt made to disbar someone for posting to a discussion forum in their capacity as an attorney. The amount of arguable counsel/solicitation involved was considerably less than your examples here."

    ME: Wow - when u say "in their" capacity as an attorney do you mean that the person to whom you referred gave specific legal advice on a forum? Or was the person offering general legal opinions? What state was this? I find this quite interesting - can you provide more details - either in this thread or in a personal message?

  • seesthesky
    seesthesky

    Auldsoul - also, what was/were the rules of professional conduct that this person was alleged to have violated by posting on a forum?

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