Psalm 50: JEHOVAH'S JUDICIAL RULINGS

by You Know 60 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  D wiltshire

  Dear Mon Capitan You Know,

  You said:
  

  You are denying the fact that the 1st century congregation had authority to "hand over to Satan" any who were judged as blasphemers or apostates. That authority to judge is from Christ.

  Don't you realize that the Catholic church can you that very same reasoning to justify their actions too?

  Like I said, I correspond frequently with brothers at Bethel. They know my name, address, phone number, congregation, and all that stuff. In all the years they have never felt the need to examine me. I am sure though that if I started bring up the hot-button topics dear to apostates that there would be an inquirey. Like I said, it all goes to intention.

  At least you admit you have to be very careful that what you write is in no way critical of the WT org.. I'm sure there are things you would like to bring up but are afraid to because of the repercussions that will come upon your person.

  Also I'm sure that you don't tell them you are visiting this site, and posting all these prediction that are out of harmomy with the WT.
• 

  Escargot

  <<<You are denying the fact that the 1st century congregation had authority to "hand over to Satan" any who were judged as blasphemers or apostates. That authority to judge is from Christ. >>>

  Some points to consider:

  (1) The apostle Paul, not the Congregation, used/had apostolic authority to instruct them to do this. This fact alone needs to be considered when making pronouncements.

  (2) Paul then states that the “Majority” rebuke was sufficient. Paul says nothing about disfellowshipping the Minority who choose not to rebuke the wrongdoer.

  (3) This was not a case of Aposticy, it was a case of Immorality.

  (4) The cited process here involved the whole congregation, not a few men who met in secret to decide the fate of the persons involved.

  (5) Elders were given the authority to serve, never to dictate to, or dominate others. Elders take the lead in restoring, however the “scriptures themselves do not place elders in a privileged relationship, restricting to them exclusively such things as encouragement, reproving or seeking to restore persons who take a wrong course.” (R Franz)

  (6) Regarding Apostates, “(2 John 9-11), what is at issue was “the teaching of the Christ,” not the teaching of some religious movement. What was that teaching? That Jesus was the Christ that he gave his life for mankind and had been resurrected, and putting in practice his teachings and morals (RO 10:6-9; 1Cor 12:3; Matt:16:16,17) It was not the belief in a complex set of “unique teachings” developed centuries later by some religious movement such as the WTBS.”
  (R Franz.)

  Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
• 

  You Know

  Don't you realize that the Catholic church can you that very same reasoning to justify their actions too?

  Of course. Every organization has the right to expect certain behavior from its members. They also have the right to expel those who don't adhere to their standards and practices. What do you suppose would happen to a guy who took a bottle of booze to pass around at an AA meeting?

  At least you admit you have to be very careful that what you write is in no way critical of the WT org..

  Not at all. But I am respectful and I recognize that this is Jehovah's organization. That's the difference. Apostates generally are questioning that or slyly challenging whether the Watchtower is the instument of Jehovah. I have no questions about that and know how to couch my criticisms in recognition of that fact. / You Know
• 

  D wiltshire

  You Know,

  What make you so sure the WT is God's Organization?
• 

  You Know

  (1) The apostle Paul, not the Congregation, used/had apostolic authority to instruct them to do this. This fact alone needs to be considered when making pronouncements.

  That's right. Paul showed them that they had that authority. At 1st Corinthians 6:5 Paul advised the congregation on how to handle an immoral man, he said: "YOU hand such a man over to Satan..."

  (2) Paul then states that the “Majority” rebuke was sufficient. Paul says nothing about disfellowshipping the Minority who choose not to rebuke the wrongdoer.

  That's not true. The counsel was clear that everyone should withdraw from anyone who is "called a brother" who is judged unfit by the congregation.

  (3) This was not a case of Aposticy, it was a case of Immorality. The cited process here involved the whole congregation, not a few men who met in secret to decide the fate of the persons involved.

  The case involving the immoral Corinthian is an example of how the process works for all cases. The whole congregation was not involved in judging. That is absurd. Older men were selected that had qualifications to judge for the congregation, and then the whole congregation was to abide by the decision of the elders. Paul, in fact, chided the Corinthian because they could seem to be able to find older men within the congregation that were able to judge and settle disputes among the brothers.

  (4) Elders were given the authority to serve, never to dictate or dominate to others. Elders take the lead in restoring, however the “scriptures themselves do not place elders in a privileged relationship, restricting to them exclusively such thing as encouragement, reproving or seeking to restore persons who take a wrong course.”

  That is a lie. As Paul showed the Corinthian congregation, each congregation, represented by its older men, has authority to expel wrongdoers---handing them over to Satan.

  (5) Regarding Apostates, “(2 John 9-11), what is at issue was “the teaching of the Christ,” not the teaching of some religious movement. What was that teaching? That Jesus was the Christ that he gave his life for mankind and had been resurrected, and putting in practice his teachings and morals (RO 10:6-9; 1Cor 12:3; Matt:16:16,17) It was not the belief in a complex set of “unique teachings” developed centuries later by some religious movement such as the WTBS.” Ray Franz

  Ray Franz is a cunning liar. In the 1st century, two apostates whom Paul handed over to Satan were said to have "deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some."

  So, Philetus and Hymenaeus were directly contradicting what the apostles were teaching. When you get down to it though, there was really no way for anyone to prove whether the ressurrection had already occurred or not. So the sin that the two apostates were guilty of was that they were undermining the authority of those whom Jesus appointed to oversee the organization back then. So Ray Franz is one who claims to have more insight than those who are over Jehovah's people. His goal is to challenge the authority of the faithful slave the same as those two 1st century apostates challenged the authority of the apostles. Paul said that he handed them over to Satan. The Watchtower has the same authority to hand over Ray Franz and his dupes to the Devil as well. / You Know
• 

  hillary_step

  Hello You Know,

  Thank you for your comments,

  You said :

  Then, if that is the case it would be appropriate for them to leave the organization. Why should that even be an issue? Let them take their new found faith and stand before the Judge.

  I am not quite sure what you meant by your comment as that is exactly what they have done. Just to re-iterate, it was you that labeled and thus judged these people as Biblically ‘apostate’, thus by definition deserving of retribution and death at the hands of Christ. It is the issue of the definitions by various bodies of what ‘apostasy’ truly is and the judgment of the ‘apostate’ by human agencies that we are discussing and trying to get to the root of.

  You are denying the fact that the 1st century congregation had authority to "hand over to Satan" any who were judged as blasphemers or apostates. That authority to judge is from Christ.

  I do not deny that in his Apostolic capacity Paul instructed that a ‘shunning’ procedure be instituted by the Congregation toward those who described themselves as Christian and led lives which did not uphold Christian values. The specific use of the term that you note is in 1 Cor. 5:5 and does not in any way, shape, or form involve the issue of apostasy. This as you well know deals with the issue of adult incest, a carnal sin and not a sin of theological interpretation, which is what the WTS has made the sin of apostasy. You well know, You Know, at least you ought to know that the sin of apostasy is a falling away from that which was previously believed. In this sense all who leave the WTS, Catholic Church, Presbyterians etc for a changed form of worship have become ‘apostate’. By this definition all JW’s are apostates as they have 'fallen away' from teachings, the 'old truths' which they may have believed as JW’s thirty years ago. For example, try running some ‘old truths’ past your Congregation during your next Bible Reading in the TMS and watch the reaction.

  What is important to us in this discussion is what you understand a Biblical definition of apostasy to be, as in the Christian realm it is quite clearly those that once accepted the ‘Sonship’ of Christ and then deny he came in the flesh.

  By approximating an answer to my questions you did state in essence that you in fact do hold views not condoned or taught by the WTS. Presumably owing to the fact that they have not pronounced against you yet for having divergent views, you feel that you are not an apostate and thus feel that you have the right to label ex JW’s as such. When, and I re-iterate when, the WTS does condemn you, for in time they surely will, will you then view yourself as an apostate deserving of a vile death because they have pronounced you as such? This You Know is the issue. The WTS goes way beyond their, to your own way of thinking, God given authority in establishing the boundaries of what an apostate is. They have an Corporate view of apostasy, but not a Biblical one.

  No doubt, that's because your questions are going to be the sort of questions that apostates always ask. I happen to know the answers to your questions, so why should I pretend that I need Bethel to answer them for me?

  Now, this brings us to another interesting point. Why do the WTS find ‘apostate questions’ so disturbing. What is contained in these mysterious questions that has allowed you to have ‘answers’ for them and remained faithful to your beliefs yet has managed to isolate so many and actually started a theological war? The ‘apostates’ ask questions that need answers. The GB knows that the answer to these questions will preciptate change. Some of them accept that policy needs to be changed yet by their own private admissions will not be ‘pressured by outside forces to make these changes’. Many ‘apostates’ seem to care more about their fellow man than the GB. Some of these flawed policies are killing people and they want them changed, but arrogantly because of an unerring belief in their own press the GB and a couple of dozen of their support team will not change them until they feel that God is good and ready.

  Contrary to some opinions I have read of your character on this Board, I believe that you have a heart that is not frozen in permafrost and I dare say as you travel from door to door your heart aches at the plight of some of the people that you meet. Please remember that there are people who are suffering owing to the corporate policies of the WTS, some grieving over tombs, I just ask that you ascribe to them the same dignity that you give others. Remember your definition of ‘apostasy’ may not be the WTS definition, or more importantly the Bibles definition.

  Again thank you for your note and comments -- HS
• 

  D wiltshire

  You Know.

  The case involving the immoral Corinthian is an example of how the process works for all cases. The whole congregation was not involved in judging. That is absurd. Older men were selected that had qualifications to judge for the congregation, and then the whole congregation was to abide by the decision of the elders. Paul, in fact, chided the Corinthian because they could seem to be able to find older men within the congregation that were able to judge and settle disputes among the brothers.

  You are assumming too much where is your Scriptural proof? Where in the Scriptures (NT) do we find any formation of a Judical Committee?
  And with reguard to reinstatement where do we even see a Committee that funtioned to allow reinstatement?

  That is a lie. As Paul showed the Corinthian congregation, each congregation, represented by its older men, has authority to expel wrongdoers---handing them over to Satan.

  You make so many assumptions.
  Where's the proof? Where did Paul show this, as you say?
  Leap apon leap of faith not in the Bible but in assumptions, all assumptions.
  Oh I suppose we might use the old authority play, because the FDS say's it's so, and so it must be because they have the Authority they must be right!
• 

  JT

  Wow, I feel like I just read a Watchtower article.
  You Know, your interpretation skills are up there with anyone in Writing.

  This post was very well written. I still don't believe any of it, but it was well written#############

  well stated indeed
• 

  Escargot

  <<<quote:

  (2) Paul then states that the ““Majority”” rebuke was sufficient. Paul says nothing about disfellowshipping the Minority who choose not to rebuke the wrongdoer.
  
  That's not true. The counsel was clear that everyone should withdraw from anyone who is "called a brother" who is judged unfit by the congregation>>>>

  (1) I quoted Pauls words, He used “Majority.” He did not state: “All.” Think about it, if there was (only!) a "majority," (Paul’s words), then there must be a Minority. Think about it.

  <<That is a lie. As Paul showed the Corinthian congregation, each congregation, represented by its older men, has authority to expel wrongdoers---handing them over to Satan.>>

  (2) Your words prove my current viewpoint. “Paul” hands them over. Apostolic authority at its best. No where can you cite a scripture that states that the matter was directed to the Elders for handling of this or any other matter related to Apostates or Disfellowshipping. Please show me at least one scripture on the matter. Also, the term ‘Congregation” in Greek, does not have the meaning of “membership” into something, but the meaning of “meeting together,” the act of meeting together. Where does it state from the scriptures that Elders represent that act of meeting together (a congregation)? Like I posted: “Elders were given the authority to serve, never to dictate to, or dominate others. Elders take the lead in restoring, however the ““scriptures themselves do not place elders in a privileged relationship, restricting to them exclusively such things as encouragement, reproving or seeking to restore persons who take a wrong course.”

  Elder as a judge? Wow, what scripture do you use for that one? The Flock book uses that term. However, I could never find a bible verse to back it up.

  Calling names won’t help, citing scriptures does.

  (3) Christ stated that we only have one master and “all of you are brothers”. This must be considered when examining all scriptures related to the responsibilities of “elders.”. Please see Romans 14:1.

  (4) <<“So, Philaenus and Hymenaeus were directly contradicting what the apostles were teaching” >>

  Ahhh, “the apostles teachings” There is that “Apostolic Authority" again. They were not disfellowshipped, just rebuked. And, shame on Paul for not consulting the Elders in their Congregation first. They were contradicting Apostolic teaching. No one can claim that power today (However, the WTBS does a good job).

  (5) “ In his counsel to Timothy, Paul urged him to stay clean from wrong influence and to avoid contentious debating. At the same time he did not instruct Timothy to combat such things with a show of authority or by threatening organizational reprisals. Genuine Christians today should follow the example of God, his son and his Son’s apostles, not that of an authoritarian organization”

  Erasmus (1520 AD): "If we want truth, every person ought to be free to speak what they think without fear."
• 

  JT

  YK says:
  Apostates absolutely despise Jehovah, as evidenced by your denial of him. You people routinely blaspheme Jehovah as a baby-killer and murderer of innocent people. You are just too dishonest to accept the fact that you have no interest in living according to his principles yet you hypocritically pretend that you do. You are simply ridiculous. You are a classic living demonstration of those who 'throw God's word behind them.' / You Know

  #######
  for all you lurkers and NONJW - this is a typical example that almost every jw makes- they group everyone in one big group:

  now consider this --in the mind of your typical jw an apostate is anyone who openly points out Goofy stuff that the wt calls the views of God

  do some of these person feel that there is no God and therefore rejects the Bible as his word- yes indeed, BUT are there also those who firmly believe in Jehovah to be a loving God and the bible to be his inspired word-----but don't accept the WT interpertation of it

  well yes there are= we have seen and know many persons who are no longer jw but are very active in some type of church-

  yet in the mind of a jw it matters not-

  whether you deny any God or beleive with all your heart there is a God- if you "AIN'T A JW YOU SH!T OUTTA LUCK"

  SO yk shows what the core problem is with jw - if you ain't connect to the Publishing firm based in NYC you up creek

  i'm really glad he posted his real views about anyone who DON'T SEE IT THE WAY HE DOES

  JAMES

  You gotta love a JW who runs his mouth