Parousia and invisibe presence

by Hellrider 39 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Elsewhere

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  Elsewhere

  http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2001/3/15/article_02.htm

  A study of the Scriptures proved to them that God resurrected Jesus to life as a glorious spirit creature in heaven. (Philippians 2:8-11)
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  Van Gogh

  Isn't the "invisible presence" theory not also a great way to justify the "nessecity" of a representative role of (their concept of) a Faithful & Discreet Slave?
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  Narkissos

  Watchtower 9/1 1953 p. 519-20:

  What about the bodies in which Jesus appeared after his resurrection? He manifested himself on one occasion in a body that had wounds into which Thomas was able to place his hands to prove that Jesus was the same person, resurrected, whom Thomas had known as the Master. But if Jesus took his human body to heaven to keep these wounds forever, this would be contrary to God’s laws governing fleshly bodies and their ability to repair themselves. Moreover, if Jesus sacrificed his human body for the life of the world and then took it back, retaining it for himself, he could not offer such merit before God in behalf of others. The ransom would be taken back, leaving mankind still in their sins.

  So these bodies that Jesus appeared in after his resurrection were materialized bodies. Similar instances occurred in ancient times, such as when the three men visited and ate with Abraham, and those appearing to Lot, in each case being angels who materialized in the form of men. Jesus’ materialized bodies were signs, evidences to eyewitnesses proving he had been resurrected according to the promise of Jehovah God.—Gen. 18:1-22; 19:1-16; John 20:29-31.

  The proofs that these were bodies materialized for the occasion are many. Mary, when she first saw Jesus after his resurrection, did not recognize him, thinking that he must be the gardener. On the road to Emmaus, he was recognized by his manners and actions, not by his facial features. (John 20:14-16; Luke 24:13-32; Mark 16:12) When he materialized a body with wound marks to convince the doubtful Thomas, Jesus appeared in a room with locked doors. (John 20:26-28) This shows that he could materialize and dematerialize a body instantaneously. Scientists claim the ability to make material substance out of pure energy. How easy for the power of the resurrected Jesus, then, to materialize a body!

  Now about the scripture that says: "While they were speaking of these things he himself stood in their midst and said to them: ‘May you have peace.’ But they were terrified, and because they became frightened they were imagining they beheld a spirit. So he said to them: ‘Why are you troubled, and why is it doubts come up in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; feel me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones just as you behold that I have.’" (Luke 24:36-39, NW) Surely, some will contend, this shows that he was not a spirit, but a "spiritualized" fleshly body. No, but these men thought that they saw a vision, or a manifestation to them such as the manifestation of the angel to Daniel, which caused him to fall down with fear.—Dan. 10:4-9.

  Since flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, Jesus could not go to heaven with a fleshly body. "Ah," some will argue, "Jesus did not here say he was flesh and blood, but flesh and bones." But would it have been reasonable for Jesus to say, ‘See, I am flesh and blood,’ when no blood was running from his body? But it was easily evident to the senses of sight and touch that he had flesh and bones.

  So then, those who refuse to recognize the signs of Jesus’ invisible presence because of looking for his coming in a body of flesh are mistaken. So also those who try to worship him today as the baby Jesus, in the face of the evidence that he grew to human manhood, died and was resurrected a mighty spirit person. It is not the baby Jesus that God commanded all to worship, nor the fleshly body, but Christ Jesus the glorified heavenly King of the new world.
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  Nathan Natas

  I'd be willing to bet a nickle right now that if you ask your JW friend about the "parousia gambit," they will tell you that the doctrine is unique to Jehovah's Witnesses.

  Let them make that statement, and then show them that the argument was first flown by a Millerite seeking to deny the failure of Miller's "expectations and specualtions."

  Catch them when they faint so that their head does not strike the ground.

  or not.
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  greendawn

  Whether they translate parousia as presence or coming it can in both cases be described as invisible by the dubs, an invisible coming or an invisible presence. Both are nonsensical. The return of Jesus will be dramatic according to the Bible, certainly not one that goes unperceived by everyone.
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  Hellrider

  Very good answers here, from all. Yes Greendawn, agreed. There is nothing in the Bible that would indicate an "invisible Kingdom" in heaven preceding the coming (which, as you point out, will be pretty violent, according to scripture). The more I learn and think about it, the stranger the JW-doctrine seems. Mad mens pipedreams and illusions of grandeur.
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  mdb

  Jesus not resurrected in the flesh... What? They teach that?

  HRider, your proof...

  "Jesus was the first one to rise from the dead, and therefore he is spoken of as "the firstborn from the dead", "the firstfruits of them that slept." (Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 15:20) This firstborn one from the dead was not raised out of the grave a human creature, but he was raised a spirit. Hence he was the firstfruits, too, of those that would have a heavenly resurrection. "He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit."-1 Peter 3:18, Weymouth." Let God Be True, Watchtower 1946, p.272
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  Hellrider

  This firstborn one from the dead was not raised out of the grave a human creature, but he was raised a spirit. Hence he was the firstfruits, too, of those that would have a heavenly resurrection.

  Incredible. Laughable. I have no idea why I didn`t know this, but it`s just appaling. So, did they miss the part about his body not being in the tomb, when they opened it? Oh, the things they do for that stupid 144K-doctrine.
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  Woodsman

  I have never had anyone present at my house who had not yet come.

  Take attendance at school ,all the kids raise their hands who are present. The ones who are not there are coming. ONCE THEY COME they are present.

  Parousias also means visit of a ruler which fits Jesus coming. They are both the same event.

  You can't be present until you come.