Yea right. It takes triple the text to proove "fleshy ressurection" to "spiritual ressurection" instead of believing what bible says. Can anybody point me to the place in bible where somebody (besides Jesus) is ressurected NOT in his previous body? Or what about Deeds 8:39-40 was Philip also spiritual superbeeing to be able move around. Or whas Jesus allready spiritual being when he was walking the water? Common... if Jesus is not ressurected, but there is some spiritual copy of Jesus which did not die for our sins, then you are still under damnation of God. See... this is where JW looses their salvation - not believing that Jesus himself give HIS life (not body), DIED and RESSURECTED (in his own body) and gained WHOLE power in the heaven and the earth. So... diagnosis for JW is - burning in the hell even if they don't believe it! Simple and plain... hell is what awaits JW... and their interpretation will not save them!
Parousia and invisibe presence
by Hellrider 39 Replies latest watchtower bible
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heathen
I'm guessing that since jesus prayed on the cross and or stake that his father receive his spirit is where the WTBTS gets their idea that jesus was first resurrected a spirit being then resurrected his own flesh as he said when he talked about raising the temple in 3 days. It's a workable belief . The part the WTBTS seems to fumble is , what happened to jesus fleshly body ? The idiot I studied with tried to convince me that it was buried somewhere that the jews couldn't find it and use it for idolotry or some stupid nonsense . Nothing but conjecture . That is the very confusing part of the ORG. at times they actually do show some insight but then come out with something totally idiotic .
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Hellrider
I'm guessing that since jesus prayed on the cross and or stake that his father receive his spirit is where the WTBTS gets their idea that jesus was first resurrected a spirit being then resurrected his own flesh as he said when he talked about raising the temple in 3 days. It's a workable belief .
I disagree. He says to his father, "receive my Spirit", just like Stephen does in Acts, and I think the intention of the author is to say something about the soul. "Spirit" is not the same as the soul, but it is a related notion. If Christs ressurection was just in his spirit, then his ressurection would be no different from Stephens...or, that is: Then Stephen would have had a ressurection to, and that is impossible, as Christs ressurection was the first in history (Stephen wasn`t ressurected, but in my opinion, his Soul was...as it is for every righteous person). The problem is of course, to the WTBTS, that if they believe Christs ressurection was "in spirit" (whatever that means) then this ressurection didn`t take place after three days, but right away. Because Christ, in his "spirit-form" (actually, his soul) goes to Hades (or Tartarus) to preach to the incarcarated angels there. The point of the Gospel-stories is that Christ was ressurected on the third day. This ressurection is his bodily ressurection (ressurected to bodily perfection and immortality). What happens in the meantime, is something else (his Soul) - but this part it is of course impossible for JWs to really explain, as they don`t believe man has a soul. So the JW-view on this is completely meaningless. Was Christ ressurected? Yes, they`ll say. When? On the third day? According to the Bible, yes, according to JW-doctrine, NO! Because if the JWs were right, there would be no difference between Christs state during the three days of death (when he goes to Tartarus) and whatever happens after those three days. They were both, then, "journeys of the Spirit". And hence, there was no ressurection.
The point is: If Christs ressurection was not physical, then there has never been a physical ressurection (that is, raised to perfection and immortality) - not even Jesus. And the point of the Bible is that this physical ressurection, raised to perfection and immortality (even in JW-doctrine) is mans hope. Christ was the example, the embodiment of mans hope, this is the entire basis of the Bible. I was shocked to find out that the WTS says Christs ressurection was in spirit.
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Narkissos
HR,
Perhaps I will surprise you but I think the notion of spiritual resurrection suits Paul's christology quite well. Perhaps one could risk a step further in expressing the implicit Pauline logic: to Paul and at least a part of later Pauline tradition, the resurrected Jesus is, not only "a spirit," but "THE Spirit". He has no distinct body anymore, his body henceforth is the Church which he animates as the Spirit. Cf. for instance 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 3:17ff; Galatians 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18. This, btw, is consistent with the Pauline view (which could be qualified as proto-docetic) that the heavenly Son of God came "in human likeness" (Philippians 2:7; cf. Romans 8:3) rather than being really human.
Of course we find a completely different view (anti-docetic) in some Gospel resurrection stories, especially in Luke, who insists that Jesus' human body is physically resurrected as it was (i.e. he is not a spirit, Luke 24:37,39). But Luke, on the other hand, never refers to Jesus' preexistence.
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yaddayadda
Erkhomei (coming) was implicit in the disciples question on the mount of Olives. No one can be present until first they have come/arrived. By asking Jesus when he will be present it goes without saying that he must first arrive or come, hence why we only find the word parousia in their question. It is the presence that is the important thing. The coming is instantaneous but the presence thereafter is the millennial reign.
The Watchtower Society have it all totally back to front. They say Jesus has been present from 1914, which must mean there was a coming in 1914, because you can't be present without first having come. But then they say he is going to be present in a more direct way in the future, at Armageddon, so that must mean he comes yet again. But scripture says he only returns again once, not twice.
It was the same in the time of the flood. The rain and flood wasn't present until first the rain came. Same with Jesus return. Carl Olof Jonsson's book discusses this superbly in his book on the signs of the times.
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Hellrider
Narkissos:
to Paul and at least a part of later Pauline tradition, the resurrected Jesus is, not only "a spirit," but "THE Spirit". He has no distinct body anymore, his body henceforth is the Church which he animates as the Spirit
Well, if I wasn`t confused before, I surely am now...Couldn`t it be argued that Christ must be...both? Both a Spirit, who is "with us", but also the perfect, immortal first raised "man"?
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Narkissos
Couldn`t it be argued that Christ must be...both? Both a Spirit, who is "with us", but also the perfect, immortal first raised "man"?
Well I guess that if you want to take into account all the NT data you have to hold something like that.Actually the orthodox (e.g. Catholic) synthesis reaches the startling conclusion that Jesus has 3 bodies: (1) his physical body resurrected from the grave; (2) his sacramental body given in the Eucharist; (3) his mystical body which is the Church -- and of course the three are one.
But you must admit that as far as Pauline theology is concerned # 1 plays no role (on the contrary, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God") and on the other hand # 2 makes the best sense as the transition from # 1 to # 3.
More generally, the advocates of physical resurrection (which, I agree, is taught in some NT texts) must always deal with the simple yet difficult question: where is Jesus' body (# 1) now?
Reading is easier without a dogmatic synthesis. Perhaps living is not.
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Hellrider
But you must admit that as far as Pauline theology is concerned # 1 plays no role (on the contrary, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God") and on the other hand # 2 makes the best sense as the transition from # 1 to # 3.
But is Paul really that clear on the issue? I know Paul definitely (that`s my opinion, at least) teaches that the soul will be raised and be with Christ in heaven, and this happens right after death, 2.Corinthians 5, 1.Thessalonians 4,14, etc) but he is ambiguent on the issue of the raising of the body too, probably because he isn`t sure about this himself:
2 Corinthians: 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago (whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows) was caught up to the third heaven. 12:3 And I know that this man (whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows)
And the ressurection (whether he is here talking about the ressurection of the body ?? or a kind of spirit-like ressurection, I`m not sure) seems to has to do with our bodies...
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven – and we also await a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 3:21 who will transform these humble bodies of ours into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself.
More generally, the advocates of physical resurrection (which, I agree, is taught in some NT texts) must always deal with the simple yet difficult question: where is Jesus' body (# 1) now?
In heaven, I would think. It`s kind of hard to imagine a physical body (although immortal and perfect) floating around in space, lol. But that`s the way it is, I guess...(I really have no idea..) -
Hellrider
By the way, here is a nice, short summary of views on the ressurection down thru the ages:
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heathen
well the apostle Paul also talks about being alive and meeting the lord in the air and being changed .1st corinthians 15:50-52
1st Thessalonians 4 . Goes on about the living not to preceed those that have died . There is a hope of not dying at all in the bible . For those that had died a resurrection .
My belief is that the city of new jerusalem lands on earth thus the people on earth can find refuge but only the faithful and true are admitted where as those left outside are burned like in the ancient gehenna that was outside the city wall in jerusalem.