I do not feel obliged to believe that the God who gave us a mouth to answer questions when asked would have us remain silent.
Galileo Woodsmano
2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!
by nicolaou 53 Replies latest watchtower bible
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nicolaou
Raphael
You say that "God is hoping David would take responsibility for his sin - David doesn't - he fails to show hearfelt repentence - all he would need to do in order for God to turn from bringing judgement upon himself and the nation."
In fact David did exactly that; v10 And David’s heart began to beat him after he had so numbered the people. Consequently David said to Jehovah: "I have sinned very much in what I have done. And now, Jehovah, let your servant’s error pass by, please; for I have acted very foolishly."
Now I don't mean to be flippant but who exactly did your Mother punish for your daughters naughtiness?
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DavidChristopher
I am intrigued at Rapheals explanation. I think Jehovah knew how to hurt David the most, and David did "try" Jehovah. David must have cared more about his people than his own family. I like the way He questioned the decision, yet obeyed. He knew who was Boss.
I wonder if this was what happend to Satan as well. Or the serpent.. Does he bear the responsibilty for our suffering? Wonder how he would feel when he realizes that? Billions have died and suffered because he "tryed" Jehovah. Or was he doing exactly what he was supposed to do? For a reason? If you condemn God, and judge his motives and ways of doing things...it would be wise to rest on that conclusion when never gets here. He knows, and try to find out what good He seen for the future by this "sin". You may learn something, from the One who screwed up and created you.
Judge no one....not even satan...as he has not got to make his case known yet.
it would be wise to gather facts before you gather rocks this time.
Your little brother,
David
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Leolaia
Okay, I'm now going to connect all this to the JWs.
I find it incredibly ironic that the Society is obsessive about publishers turning in their "time" constantly, and which produces statistics updated on a year-by-year basis that tallies together the total number of publishers and JWs attending the Memorial. The Society moreover, frequently admits that they believe the "great crowd" that survives the Great Tribulation is to be identified with the non-anointed JWs in their organization. The irony lies in the fact that Revelation states explicitly that "no man can number" the "great crowd", yet the Society supposedly conducts a census on it every year.
Moreover, the text in Revelation 7 contrasts the innumerable "great crowd" with the 144,000 that is explicitly ennumerated a few verses earlier, and this ennumeration is done exactly in the style of a military census. The reason why Yahweh forbid a census to be conducted on Israel is that his promise to Abraham was that Israel would be as innumerable as the sands of the sea or the stars in the sky. This is the thought that lies behind the text in Revelation 7. I just find it funny that the Society dares to claim that its own organization contains the innumerable "great crowd" mentioned in this text and then proceeds to ennumerate it in a way reminiscent of David.
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Leolaia
Here are some humorous examples of this:
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w97 11/1 p. 22 I Saw "the Small One" Become "a Mighty Nation" ***The great multitude, or great crowd, truly has become great, numbering over five million.
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w98 2/1 p. 18 The Other Sheep and the New Covenant ***This great crowd was recognized back in 1935, and today it numbers more than five million.
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w01 3/1 p. 20 Salvation for Those Who Choose the Light ***Today, the borders of the Israel of God have spread around the earth, and the great crowd that has been added now numbers some six million enthusiastic sharers in the work of preaching the good news.
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w02 5/1 p. 23 Who Will Survive the Day of Jehovah? ***This great crowd has been manifested in a marvelous way, and those actively serving Jehovah now number over six million in more than 93,000 congregations throughout the earth!
Compare with Revelation 7:9: " After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues" (NWT).
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Raphael
Raphael
You say that "God is hoping David would take responsibility for his sin - David doesn't - he fails to show hearfelt repentence - all he would need to do in order for God to turn from bringing judgement upon himself and the nation."
In fact David did exactly that; v10 And David’s heart began to beat him after he had so numbered the people. Consequently David said to Jehovah: "I have sinned very much in what I have done. And now, Jehovah, let your servant’s error pass by, please; for I have acted very foolishly."
Nicolaou...
It is true David does feel guilty and admit his sin , asks for forgiveness ...However is it true heartfelt repentance . I would suggest that David does not realize the full impact of his actions -
I think it is also important to note that the census took place over a period of almost 9 months , before God chose to act - giving David sufficient time in which to change course.
In verses 12-13 God gives David 3 choices to test his heart...
Two of the choices involve situations that would effect the nation as a whole :
Famine would not neccessarily effect David and his family .As the Royal family we could argue that their needs would be met, famine would largely effect the most vulnerable in the nation.
The option of disease would also expose the most vulnerable and afflict the entire nation - David and his household it could be argued would have the resources to temporarily flee and so escape the situation.
My guess is that if David had chosen the option to be pursued by his enemies - this choice would perhaps indicate that he was taking full responsibilty for his sin..
Notice how God words this choice "...or will YOUR enemies chase YOU and make YOU run from tehm for 3 MONTHS...
Verse 14 tells us David was really frightened, and leaves his and the nations fate in God hands.
As I mentioned previously David seemingly fails to take full responsibilty - possibly an indication of a lack of heartfelt repentance.
God chooses and the entire nation suffer as a result ...
Verse 17 David finally realises the full impact of his sin he now takes responsibility and says in effect the nation have not sinned ..it is me who has lead them astray as leader punish ME and MY family...
God halts the slaying ...and the plague ends...
Interesting to note that in the verses that follow , David also produces works that befit repentance , by offfering sacrifices in accordance with Mosaic Law - thus making atonement for the sin .
God is vindicated as a righteous judge.
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LittleToe
Raph:You're reading a lot into the text, with your various assumptions. A good dose of "seemingly"s and "suggestions". When not trying to stand up for a God who can stand up for Himself, what do you do in your spare time?
Leo:
Good call on the numbers thang. -
Narkissos
RM, the NWT footnote reads: " Or, "he." See 1Ch 21:1."
Actually there is a double mistranslation in the NWT: " And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, when one incited David against them, saying: "Go, take a count of Israel and Judah."
In the MT it is a (temporal/logical) consecutive construction: Yhwh is angry and/so he incites David". The anger itself is unexplained, on the other hand it is the cause for the action of inciting David to take the census. Blurring the consecutive and substituting "one" for "he" is obviously meant to harmonise the account with 1 Chronicles, where Satan initiates the census which in turn causes Yhwh/God's anger.
Re: Leolaia, in a mythical-conspirationist way, perhaps the permanent WT census is meant to keep a divine curse upon the "great crowd"...
The superstition that a census may cause a curse is hardly understandable now, but it is quite in line with the ancient view of gods and demons as being potentially harmful to men: better for lay people to stay individually unnoticed of them and let the priestly-sanctuary arrangement take care for screening them from the sacred realm.
Cf. Exodus 30:12:
When you take a census of the Israelites to register them, at registration all of them shall give a ransom for their lives to the LORD, so that no plague may come upon them for being registered.
(Cf. also the substitution of Levites + ransom of the exceeding number of firstborn to all the firstborn of Israel in Numbers.)
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Pleasuredome
it was just a cover story for david to rid himself of political opponents. conspiracies where happening back then just as they are today. just that back then people were stupid enough to believe it was 'god' who had done it, as international terrorism hadn't been made up at the time.
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Raphael
LittleToe...
Hope you're good fella ;-)
I think my experiences with the WTS have taught me not to be dogmatic about anything....I'm open to the Sprits leading on issues and others may well have more insight than I on a particular topic, in which case I conceed, that the Spirit may use them to teach also.
You're right God needs noone to defend him and that is not my intention and I hope thatis not the impression I have created. I'm sure God - having a great sense of humour ,sometimes looks at these posts and perhaps has a laugh and shakes his head at some of the things we come up with - at least I hope he does.