2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God! (page 5)

Shining One

>But I did believe it, for decades. Now that I'm free I want to help free a few more minds, after all there are a lot of nice people here. Sorry if you thought I was whining.

You are taking advantage of people who have left (or are leaving) a cult. Your goal seems to be not enlightenment, but the ruining of what's left of their faith. When one views the eternity before us all that is the most critical issue facing everyone. You bought the biggest JW lie, hook line and sinker: "All religion is false." What about the eternal fates of all of those 'nice people' you are 'freeing'?

If you are indicting all of Christianity by using Old Testament historical passages out of the context of the times, then you have no solid argument. Do all Christians teach inerrancy? When Jesus said that "Seeing Him was like seeing the Father", does this event fall in line with the Lord's character? If it does please cite chapter and verse.

The historical-grammatical method of hermeutics shows us how to interpret scripture and you are not a Bible teacher. All of the Bible needs to be interpreted in light of the character and revelation of Jesus Christ. Therefore, you are wrong again: all that you accomplish by whining about difficult texts is expose your own particular brand of falicious reasoning and assure yourself that your life choices are most correct.

Rex

nicolaou

You are taking advantage of people who have left (or are leaving) a cult. Your goal seems to be not enlightenment, but the ruining of what's left of their faith.

Well now, to take advantage of a person or situation would imply that I stand to gain something, what would that be Shining One? Why begin your post by making such a negative comment about me? As for enlightenment, well that all comes down to our point of view doesn't it? I'm sure you consider yourself to be far more enlightened than a godless atheist like myself - fair enough, you're entitled to your view and, on a public forum like this, you're entitled to share it and try to convince others that you are right - good luck to you. By the same token however I am also free to spread whatever crap, doctrine or theory I believe in. Attack what I say by all means but don't attack me.

As for faith. 'Ruining' is rather an emotive word wouldn't you agree? I remember how important my faith was to me and how it still is to my family and friends. Why would I try to ruin something considered so valuable by those I care about. No Shining One, I'm not trying to ruin anything but I would like to remove the need for faith. I don't say that with malice, I genuinely believe that people become healthier and more balanced when living a life of reason rather than faith. I'm in a tiny minority here I know. Posters like James Thomas, Little Toe and Honesty have all tried to convince me that faith and reason are not incompatible. I don't agree with them but at least they compose their arguments with good humour and manners.

What about the eternal fates of all of those 'nice people' you are 'freeing'?

Without evidence to the contrary I have to conclude that we all share the same fate - life followed by death. That's it. So can you understand that by living a life skewed to the belief that there is something better waiting for us 'on the other side' many 'nice people' will be wasting their potential, their energies and creativity that could have been expended in this life, the only life we all have.

When Jesus said that "Seeing Him was like seeing the Father", does this event [2 Sam: 24] fall in line with the Lord's character? If it does please cite chapter and verse.

Well as a JW I was taught that Jesus would lead his Fathers fight at Armageddon and kill billions - is that not your point of view?

Now then Shining One, if we could have a civil debate that would be great but don't go insulting me again, it just isn't nice.

Nic'

Gill

God, or Jehovah, acts like a homicidal maniac throughout the old Testament. Can you find anything good, or nice that Jehovah does to anyone, or for anyone.

It's all kill, slaughter, destroy, put to the sword, pestilence, annihalate, death, die die, die......He's totally awful.

He is certainly not the God portrayed in the NT. So what happened? Did he have a lobotomy? Or is he a different God all together from the Christian God?

A Paduan

I'd really like a believers take on this account.

Well, for a start, the story is spiritual, so if your a literalist it mightn't make sense unless you just say "well it appears god is no good"

The census thing is kinda like what the wtbts does. Indeed it's almost a jw story - ("Ok, go around and see who's in and who's out - based on OUR criteria - let US decide" - it's a judgement)....... and YOU men register the people, and I shall certainly know the number of the people
Joab said, "May God even add to the actual number, but why would you enjoy doing what you are doing - ie. making himself judge (aka the wtbts), but the king did it anyway (seems Joab started doing independent thinking)
They crossed the Jordan ie. their "stream of judgement" to do it
They counted both valiant men drawing sword (ie. the Word of God), and those of Judah - the promised Lord's tribe
Unlike the gb, David knows he's done the wrong thing
The punishment to David was that the Lord started to show him who was "in or out" , and that was the calamity - thw witness of spiritual death
the Angel was nearby the "threshing floor" where the chaff is separated from the wheat
So David set up an altar and thought better of making himself judge of "who's in and who's out"

Paduan

Shining One

What do I think you might have to gain? You would have a measure of 'revenge on God' for letting you be misled and disappointed. Think about it. Our motives are not very often 'altruistic' and there are deeper things going on in our psyche'. Don't kid yourself: Our very nature is selfish and filled with pride.

>Well as a JW I was taught that Jesus would lead his Fathers fight at Armageddon and kill billions - is that not your point of view?

No, not at all. Eschatology is not a 'cut and dried' matter. There are many different positions taken even under the general banner of 'evangelicals'. Understand this: I see no need to apologize for God doing whatever His wll actually is. By His very nature He sets the rules, the span of life of each of us for instance.
People live and people die but I don't believe there is going to be one big slaughter to end it all. Many do but that is an opinion and everyone has one. My point in answering you in a blunt fashion was to make you aware that you have not appeared to have studied the subject enough to understand what you are talking about. Throw off the JW baggage and undertake an open minded study of the most important subject (and decision) you will ever come across.
You are not going to get anywhere leaning on the lame, unanswerable and contrived questions and statements of skeptics. There is more than enough evidence out there to establish the claims of Jesus Christ. You will not find an answer to every question but you will find enough to base your own faith on.
Don't give up on God because of the JW experience. I understand that you do not mean harm but what is the end result if I am right and you are wrong? If I am wrong nobody will truly suffer for living a life based on the teachings of Jesus. The opposite is true: others will benefit from you living a life of love and servanthood. Their IS lot of satisfaction in basing your life on benefitting others!
Rex

LittleToe

Even today people blame God for events that are out of their control. They seek meaning and patterns in the events of life.

"Was God judging people when the Tsunami hit?" was a typical example of one. In David's day they would have written it into the annals of their history with little compuncture.

Guess what? Sometimes shyte just happens!

Narkissos

Even today people blame God for events that are out of their control. They seek meaning and patterns in the events of life.

That's a pretty sweeping argument (if you don't like the play, just walk out).

Doesn't it apply to every single instance where "God" (or any god) is reported as "doing" or "saying" anything?

LittleToe

Sure it's a sweeping statement

I get filled with questions such as "how did they know that God was gonna put him up to calling for a census?". It certainly adds a little je ne c'est qua to the narrative, but leaves as many questions as answers, for the reader. "Oh no!!! Surely he's not going to census the people, why would he do a stupid thing like that?"... "ah, God made him do it".... "boy, he's gonna get it!!!"... "yup, he got it alright!".

Suspending such skepticism, for a moment, what is the author trying to tell us? Is it really a message that David's god is a vindictive sumbiatch?

Narkissos

Actually 2 Samuel 24 corresponds to 21 (closing the series of appendices to 2 Samuel): in both stories there is a divine plague (3-year famine, 3-day pestilence) and David somehow succeeds in making atonement and ending the plague (21:14; 24:25). So the divine causality (in a pre-monotheistic perspective as I tried to show earlier) is absolutely essential to the narrative imo. And, yes, at this stage the divine is potentially harmful, dangerous and not essentially benevolent to mankind. The role of the king (who acts still as a priest) is to protect his people from the gods.

LittleToe

Is the message about god or the Pharoah-like king/priest hero?

2 Samuel chapter 24 - Don't mess with God!

Share this