God not only condoned mass murder, he ordered it

by Kent 89 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Fredhall

  Kent,

  I bet that Jehovah will attack Norway first in his day of vengance.
• 

  Kent

  Oh, shut the bred-grinding mill, Rex. Norm has challenged your god, and so do I. If he's the almighty bastard he claims to be, ask him to come visiting me! The only thing he will feel is my combat-boots sinking into his fat ass!

  Here you have a cute image of another of his loving followers!

  Even if a passage IS litteral.... HOLY SHIIIT! Madmen like you never learn. We like this - this is litteral. We don't like this, this is figurative speaking.

  You're a bunch of madmen, Rex - lunatics who are so superstitious you can't pee without saying something to that insane god of yours.

  I don't take the Bible litteral, I don't even take it seriously - and I don't take people like you seriously either.

  Tell your fuckin joke of a god to kill me, or hurt me, or what ever. If he can't he has no power, and I'll piss all over him. If he has any power at all, it's your turn. OK?

  Is that a fair challenge for him?

  Yakki Da

  Kent

  The most significant difference between Prime Minister John Howard and Hitler, is the fact that Hitler is dead.

  Daily News On The Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses:
  http://watchtower.observer.org
• 

  Shaneliza

  Kent,
  RIGHT ON !!!!!
  You just said what i wanted to say , only I couldn't find the words.
• 

  Rex B13

  Kent and Shaneliza,
  When are you going to realize your witty little ditties are 'old news' and have been answered ever since the first atheist crawled from under a rock?
  Ha! I got you going and it must have been a 'raw nerve', eh Kent baby?
  You don't like it when you are exposed for the actual minimal knowledge of Biblical interpretation you have, do you?
  You will die on the very instant that God has already determined and that absolutely frustrates you. You are in the same boat, in or out of the Watchtower.
  Then, you shout out vulgarities and cry like a 12 year old who just got his butt whipped. bwahhhhhhhh
  Well at least you have your own little cadre' of followers. You are famous amongst a few for as long as this place and similiar ones exist. That will end when the WBTS finally goes mainstream or splits, losing the blood, df and shunning issues will force you into a new hobby. No one will care about your web site and crude attitude toward the people you help prey on.
  Yep, you prey on those who are trying to leave the Borg. You are there waiting as the exact image of what the WBTS calls an 'apostate'. I wonder how many more would have left NOT meeting your posts online?
  You don't even realize that you are just what the Society wants JWs online to see! You prove them RIGHT.
  Rex
• 

  dedalus

  Okay, I'm going to try really hard to understand Rex's explanation for God's ordering the murder of children. I assume that Rex agrees that this is an accurate statement: God ordered that infants be killed, not a single one spared. Am I wrong, Rex? Tell me.

  Now, let's see how Rex's explanation goes:

  As usual, you seem NOT to understand that God determines how long each one of us live. We are predestined to our limited time and have only enough free will to choose eternal life or eternal damnation.

  Okay, let's say we have free will. I understand what free will means. It means that, even if God has stamped an expiration date on my forehead, I am responsible for the choices I make, and I make them of my own volition. Okay. But what about infants? What choices had they made, and what does this have to do with God's ordering them killed? Are you implying that God killed the babies because they had abused their free will? If not, then what's the point of this free will jabber?

  If I ordered my own infant to death, I'm sure you'd think I was pure evil, Rex. So why is it okay when God does it? And how is free will involved in your answer?

  We all will die on the day that God has determined.

  Uh-huh. So, God had these infants born, which is a miraculous testament to the greatness of his creative powers, only to determine that they must immediately die? Why? And why should that kind of insanity inspire me to worship him?

  Is that so hard to get through your alcohol & drug addled brain?

  Well, I don't know about Kent, but I'm dead sober. I'm beginning to think that I might need a few drinks before your explanation begins to make sense, Rex.

  You're taking what many consider to be Hebrew apologetics over their own sins and making it apply to all Christians. Even if the passages ARE literal it is within divine providence to judge creation!

  "It is within divine providence to judge creation." Um, this means that whatever God does is good, because he has "divine providence," which just a fancier way of saying that whatever God does is good. This means that morality is utterly subjective to the will of God. Morality is whatever God says it is. Morality is utterly meaningless and when we talk about virtue and goodness and honor, we are just farting into the wind, because malice and hatred and wickedness are just as good, if God says they are.

  Next, you make the same JW error over and over, ignoring the fact that the soul is immortal and we suffer only a physical death.

  Is it okay to stab a person in the eye if you're sure you can restore his sight? I'm not so sure, Rex. Plus, do you really think those infants are now off eating ice cream somewhere in heaven (or whatever)? Why would God reward someone he ordered killed? Why would he preserve in spirit a nation he was bent on destorying on earth?

  Some people are better off dead, are they not, Kent baby?

  Are infants better off dead?

  Lastly, you keep telling us the Bible is a myth and if that is the case, why do YOU take it literal?

  Kent's reasons for asking the question have nothing to do with the actual answer to the question.

  So tell me, Rex, have I misunderstood you, or misrepresented you, and if so, where? Can you clear things up at all?

  Dedalus
• 

  Francois

  Rex, man, when did you become a presbyterian? You really believe in predestination?

  You have children? You ever watch them going about their business and you know from the outset that the course one of them is taking is going to lead inexorably to a certain end, just by virtue of your experience. Your knowing what's going to happen doesn't change a thing about free will in your children, nor does it mean the outcome is predestined. Foreknowledge isn't fore control. Ever thought about it like that?

  Franc
• 

  Rex B13

  OK Dedalus, I'll bite.

  >"Attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants" (First Samuel 15:3).

  If one understands the passage as literally what God ordered:

  1) The Kenites were spared from the judgement.
  2) The Amalekites and their possesions were utterly destroyed except for what Saul disobediently wanted to keep.
  3) Judgement was decreed due to their hostility toward Israel that related clear back to Exodus.

  Even in this wonderful, modern world we have things like this happening on an even greater scale...without God ordering it. One can speculate that Israel would not have peace within their own lands while the Amalekites remained in large numbers as a tribe. It was a common thing for the young ones of someone killed to be raised up for vengeance on the offending parties.
  "I have loved Jacob and hated Esau" is what we are told in Genesis and the Amalekites were descended from Esau. I can't answer for that.
  Children who die are not held of any account by God and their souls are safe with Him, otherwise (in this case) they would have grown up as enemies of Israel and God. One can ask many unanswerable questions and their may be factors that we do not have clear, given the mists of time and the utterly barbaric situations in this ancient age. Divine judgement is the sole providence of God, as is the length of life of each one of us and even the manner of death is foreknown by God. It is by His allowance that man chooses by his own free will to act as he does. The 'free will jabber' is thus explained. The Amalekites chose their course, they and their families reaped the whirlwind.
  What happens to civilians in war, even 'righteous wars' like WW2? How many innocent Jews were saved because 60,000 civilians died in Dresden? How many hundreds of thousands (or a million) were saved because of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Did the German people, even innocents, suffer and die because of their leader's actions? How about the Japanese? Who had the 'free will' to make wise choices instead of tragic? MAN DID THEN AND HE DOES NOW.

  Some commentators take this account and others like it, as an example of Israel making excuses for their own actions, claiming it was God who ordered the judgement. Many Christians interpret scripture as having to conform to the revelation of Christ in the gospels. If it does not line up with His character it is not literal in their view. In other words, they do not take an 'inerrant word of God' stance.
  I wonder why critics do not attack the Flood judgement, it was certainly more all-encompassing regarding the sheer numbers of deaths.

  >If I ordered my own infant to death, I'm sure you'd think I was pure evil, Rex. So why is it okay when God does it? And how is free will involved in your answer?

  That's not an accurate analogy. You are not on the same level as God as you do not know the possible fates of any, including your own infant.

  >Uh-huh. So, God had these infants born, which is a miraculous testament to the greatness of his creative powers, only to determine that they must immediately die? Why? And why should that kind of insanity inspire me to worship him?

  This 'insanity' is exactly what kind of world people like you and I choose to make. You and I are certainly not superior to, nor better than, any previous generation of man. Why are YOU so self-righteous? You purposely twist 'allowance' and 'determination' in order to judge God by your standards. We really have no idea how much more evil would prevail in this world without any influence of the Holy Spirit. Any who live to see the tribulation period will experience that.

  >. This means that morality is utterly subjective to the will of God. Morality is whatever God says it is.

  More of the same thing, you seek to judge God by what you say you would do. God, by the very definition of the three O's IS above us and He alone determines His actions. WE have guidelines and can choose to follow them or not. NOT following them got us where we are.
  Is a General in the army a murderer? How about the President? Where do we throw in the variables and conditions? Were any of us present, knew all about the situation in Israel or is it just possible we don't have all of the facts?

  How about it, Dedalus, do you classify every single leader who led an army or a nation as a 'murderer'? I expect an answer to this one!

  >Is it okay to stab a person in the eye if you're sure you can restore his sight? I'm not so sure, Rex.

  Did Jesus NOT tary when He learned Lazarus was near death? Do I have to tell you the answer?

  >Plus, do you really think those infants are now off eating ice cream somewhere in heaven (or whatever)?

  Much better than that, I'm sure. This world is the worst we will have of it as Christians or innocents. For the unsaved, it's the best they will have.

  >Why would God reward someone he ordered killed? Why would he preserve in spirit a nation he was bent on destorying on earth?

  "God so loved the world that He sent His only son to die." God Himself went through everything (and much worse) that we go through, in order that He might pay the price for our sins and rebelliousness. He knew exactly what everyone would go through when He created us out of nothing, in eternity. God the son still lives as a man and is our mediator to God the Father in heaven. Christ was raised in His own transformed, spiritual body, just like we will be!

  :

  Lastly, you keep telling us the Bible is a myth and if that is the case, why do YOU take it literal?

  >Kent's reasons for asking the question have nothing to do with the actual answer to the question.

  Are you in Kent's head? I know, critics want to harpoon the Bible and still claim it is all a 'myth' or fabrication. The same ones decide ahead of time, that NO MIRACLES nor SUPERNATURAL can happen, then they decide (no duh) that the events of the Bible cannot be true based on that premise, regardless of the evidence! What arrogance.

  >So tell me, Rex, have I misunderstood you, or misrepresented you, and if so, where? Can you clear things up at all?

  You choose. I do not know.
  Hindsight is always 20/20 especially when we do not have the all of the factors, only a few lines of text written by men who lived in a savage world.
  Its been pleasant sparring with you!
  Rex
• 

  Rex B13

  If the premise is that God has the three O's, and that IS a requirement for Him to be God Almighty in the first place, then all things are withing His sphere of influence. He allows Satan and evil to go only as far as He wills it but He does not initiate evil. So there is 'determination' and 'allowance' but all is under His ultimate control. 'Free will' is actually minimal.
  Rex
• 

  Rex B13

  You're pretty good at back slapping and hind licking. I'll bet you were one one of the local bully's sidekicks who says, "yea, what he said". Go back and look through your posts!
  Rex
• 

  no1youknow

  Rex, you say we don't know why God ordered the murdering of babies (and so you want us to assume that God must’ve had a good reason). But we HAVE been given the reason for the murdering of babies: just read the previous verse:

  1Sam:15:2: Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
  1Sam:15:3: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

  So God wanted to wreak this vengeance upon them for what their ancestors had done to the Israelites as they came out of Egypt. When God supposedly spoke these words, it was more than 200 years after the Israelites had escaped from Egypt. The individual Amalekites who had fought to protect their homeland from the invading horde of Israelites were long dead. Their children were long dead. Their grandchildren were long dead. Their great-grandchildren were long dead. Their nearest descendants still living at that time would've been their great-great-grandchildren. At least four generations of Amalekites had come and gone before God chose the fifth generation for punishment. Furthermore, the fifth generation would've been middle-aged by this time: "Infants and sucklings" would've been at least sixth generation. This exceeds God's promise to punish up to the third and fourth generation (Ex. 20:5).

  Today this would be equivalent to the United States declaring war on the Native Americans for having fought to defend their homeland from the invading Europeans over 200 years ago. If today the U.S. military were to launch massive attacks on the "Indian Reservations" throughout the country, slaughtering all of the men, women, children, babies, and animals it could find, who would not call this unspeakably evil? Yet when we find the very same actions described in the "Holy Bible" we say that they were somehow justified. Let me clue-in Bible-defenders: murdering babies (even your enemy's babies) is NEVER justified. It COULD never have been justified, and it never WILL BE justified. This means that the God of the Bible was not a just God; he was a fiend: PURE EVIL PERSONIFIED.

  To claim that we cannot judge God is to take a stand on quicksand. You have already judged God as soon as you say “God is good.” Unless this statement means “God is God” (which is just as meaningless as saying “blah is blah”), you have taken a certain standard called “goodness” and held it up beside God and personally judged that God meets (or exceeds) that standard. So, you have judged God.

  Unless God has spoken to you directly, you must have also made a personal judgment regarding the Bible. I guess you decided that you would believe that it was “inspired” by God, and contained a fairly accurate account of his activities.
  
  But now it seems that you have forgotten that you had previously personally judged God and the Bible. So that now you think such judgments are inappropriate. When people point out the moral outrages committed by God in the Bible, you find yourself forced to defend them by any means in order to “save face” regarding your premature judgment of the Bible as a whole. It would be more honest to say: “Oh, I thought the Bible was the inspired word of an all-good God, but I didn’t realize that it said he had ordered the murder of infants! That puts a whole new light on the matter! I guess I’m not infallible, and I made a mistake.” I have found this to be the honest reaction of people with a little bit of humility who are really serious about truth and ethics. While others, who cannot admit their mistakes will desperately attempt to defend the indefensible and will engage in personal attacks against those who point out the truth. I know I was in that situation until I finally had to yield to the overwhelming evidence and eat some crow -- it wasn’t such a bad meal, and I’ve felt much better ever since.