To all Active JW's on the board (page 2)

RichieRich

I'm an active JW, and an even more active Apostate.

JWD and my apostate activities are my release. That's how I feel better. Helping others helps me.

I hope your questions get answered.

Justitia Themis

She had to stay married to him or she would lose her priveldges in the congregation. Would Jehovah agree with that, or any kind person even consider that scriptural?

*** w88 5/15 p. 6 Divorce—What Does the Bible Really Say? ***

From the foregoing, it is clear that the Bible does not say that all marriages are to remain permanent and no divorce is permissible for any reason at all. On the other hand, the Bible provides only one acceptable basis for divorce, namely, "the ground of fornication."

Rape IS fornication; therefore, she had grounds.

Justitia Themis

stop me from attending meetings by taking the car away so I walked to and from meeting with my 6 month old son, calling me horrible names and in the end started getting violent.

You have the right to separate from a violent spouse. That type personality will usually commit adultery within a short amount of time, therefore, scriptually freeing you. That is the offenders problem, not yours.

Grouper

UNCLEAR,

Sorry about what has happened to you, the issues you write about are of a very sensitive nature and are therefore to be treated that way. The divulgence of very personal information to a tribunal (elders) in my opinion is wrong and should be no ones business but you and the party involved.

The elder and ms friends I have known throughout my life have always share confidential info with others who don’t need to know about it, including myself. It is not that they are horrible people but it is human nature to want to divulge information with others.

If professionals such as law enforcement, doctors, and psychiatrist occasionally slip in divulging info and could jeopardize their careers, what is one to expect of brothers who for the most part have very little training in social sciences that would assist them in assisting troubled ones and keeping information confidential.

And besides the training headquarters gives these brothers is many times a joke, I’ll give some examples.

Speaking to an elder friend about DF’ing for porneia, he stated that recently (2years) HQ’s told them that masturbating with someone online through a live webcam is considered porneia and therefore grounds for df’ing, I don’t recall if grounds for divorce also applied if the individual is married. So then I asked him what about if the masturbation was done to an MPEG or other recorded performance, he said that was not porneia. What? DO you see the lunacy in this kind of reasoning?

Here is one more. If you go to a strip club and get a lap dance that would be considered porniea and therefore be grounds for df’ing but if you just touch the breast and maybe slap some ass you would most likely only be counseled. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! Do some boners work on osmosis? Please someone tell me because if that is the case I’m missing out.

I believe elders should only give generalized counsel to assist marriages, if one wants to speak about specifics go to a trained professional who will assist you with issues such as self worth and addictions, the elders are way over there heads in these instances.

One last thought a girlfriend of mine went to the elders to confess she had fornicated with one of our friends. I asked her after wards how it went, she replied they were very nice but asked many questions with regards to the act. Such as if he came (her orgasm wasn’t important), was oral sex given and if the bodily fluids were swallowed. Why The F*** are they suppose to know these details?

I know you probably will not agree with me with regards who you are to divulge personal information to, but future ordeals say the minimum, remember today’s elder could be tomorrows DF’ed brother.

BlackSwan of Memphis

justitia

out of curiosity:

Had this woman went ahead with a divorce and remarried a brother in the congregation and had the elders disfellowshipped her for committing fornication since they obviously didn't read what you did,

then was the Holy Spirit active within that congregation and with those elders in disfellowshipping her?

And

Also had she seperated from her violent husband and the elders put her on private reproof, was the Holy Spirit active in that decision as well?

I'm all for people not being perfect and making mistakes, but is it possible for the Holy Spirit to make a mistake?

just wondering

meagan

Justitia Themis

Dear Black Swan:

The poster wanted "concrete" information; I tried to be careful to provide only that.

Regarding your questions, I will tell you my opinion, and it is just, my personal opinion. Despite being an active JW, I do not think the FDS has yet been appointed. I am not alone in my personal opinion. I do not think Jesus has begun ruling yet, and the holy spirit CLEARLY does not control every action, appointment, etc. in the congregation.

Do I think it is Jehovah's organization? Yes, just as the wicked Pharisees were still the "official party." The great thing about that is that I also believe that all the condemnations of the major prophets against the leadership of Israel apply to JW leaders, NOT Christendom. And I can't wait to see them come to fruition.

I am a friend of Jehovah's, not the Corporation.

BlackSwan of Memphis

Justitia

Thank you for your honest opinion. I was aware that you were providing concrete information. I honestly appreciated it. I really tried to be careful not to sound too cynical when I broached the topic.

It is really really good to know that there are people in the organization who are like you. I think that it is a really great thing that you are confident in what you believe and are choosing to believe what you feel is only scripturally correct and not what someone else is telling you to believe.

Thanks for the honesty. I have been to a forum for witnesses who are wanting reform. It's interesting.

Glad to have you here

meagan

looking_glass

That absolutely and totally sucks! I often wonder if things would be handled differently if it were an elder's daughter and they were going thru the same thing.

jwfacts

Very pertinent questions. You are correct in saying you can not go to the elders. You already know the answers they will say, they can not speak beyond what you have already read in the Watchtower. What got me to open my mind was elders telling me to do more study. Very funny because I already knew far more about JW doctrine than they did. What it alerted me to though was that I did not know anything about other peoples beliefs beyond the Watchtower. When I started to find out why other religions differed, and to compare Watchtower statements with encyclopedias I was shattered at how dishonest so much of what I had read was. To add paragraphs check the Automatic Cr/Lf box above the Submit button.

Good Girl or Bad Girl?

Hi Grouper,

You posted about your friend who went to the elders and confessed and the personal questions they asked her. This same thing happened to me. My fiance and I decided to go forward to "do the right thing" and confessed. Nobody knew what we had done but us. You'd think they might have mercy on us and reprove us or something but NO we were DF'd.

Anyway, in my meeting, the elders asked all these horrifying personal questions that made me feel DISGUSTING. To this day (nearly 5 years later) I do not know the purpose of the questioning. These were brothers who I had known since I was a little girl. They were like fathers to me. I still think they are good people, but why, if it didn't make a difference to the outcome and I don't see why it would, did they ask me how many different positions we were in and to describe them, how many times we orally pleased each other, for how long, did he come, did I come, and it goes on? I was only 19 and so naive; this is just really sickening to me.

What Justitia says she believes is something I don't know if I am strong enough to do: to stay a part of the organization and find my own gray area of beliefs (rather than the black and white that they want us to believe) when things like this are happening. It just seems so wrong! Justitia, I'm impressed by you but don't know if I have that strength to hang in there. All or Nothing behavior is all I've been taught to know. I feel like I must stay or leave.

UNCLEAR, I feel for you. Thank you for posting your experiences.

GG

To all Active JW's on the board

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