by Amazing1914 56 Replies latest jw friends
Dear Amazing and Lil,
The thing that is confusing..is this: I know the holy spirit has always been with God's people, so what was special about the holy spirit that Jesus would send down after he died? Was it a combination of God's and Jesus' spirit.. Is that what made it different? And the prior, being God's spirit alone? As it couldn't come and live with us until Jesus died and went to heaven..
Hi Star,
The thing that is confusing..is this: I know the holy spirit has always been with God's people, so what was special about the holy spirit that Jesus would send down after he died? ; Was it a combination of God's and Jesus' spirit.. ; Is that what made it different? And the prior, being God's spirit alone? ; As it couldn't come and live with us until Jesus died and went to heaven
I do not know of any verses that say that the Holy Spirit could not come down until Jesus went to heaven. Looking at the situation, the Holy Spirit was working with Jesus while he was on earth. But Jesus was there do to what was planned during his short stay. Once he left, the entire situation was now in the hands of the Holy Spirit. Starting with Pentecost, the Holy Spirit started out with flare, so to speak, and has been responsible for building and moving the Church since that time. Christ has had an active interest as well as the Father. However, it has primarily been the work of the Holy Spirit to lead, teach, guide, comfort, etc.
If my comments are still missing the point, please quote some scriptures and show what I am missing. Thanks. - Jim Whitney
Hi Amazing,
Your are correct the Holy Spirit was always active. Jesus had it poured out on the Christians though after he went to heaven. But of course Christ had to have Holy Spirit upon him when he was on earth because this is what he used to heal people, raise the dead, etc. Yes the Holy Spirit moves people in the church and helps them grow. But I Totally disagree with you about who Holy Spirit works upon. How can you say only certain churches have Holy Spirit? Remember Christ did away with the old ways, The church today is the living body of Christ. Holy Spirit bonds people together. Christians that is, no matter what denomination they belong to. Even if they do not belong to a denomination. Many of the established churches try to say they are the true church. First of all, it is up to Christ to decide the matter.The place of worship is totally irrelevent according to Christ himself:
In the book of John chapter 4 starting in verse 7, Jesus encounters a Samaritan women at a well. In speaking to her, they begin a talk about worship. She tells Jesus that her people worship on that mountain but the Jews say they must worship in Jerusalem. Jesus answers her by saying (verse 21) "Believe me woman, a time is coming when you will worship the father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem" In verse 23, the Lord says "The time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks". God is Spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and truth.
It is obvious that by this verse the PLACE of worship is not relevent. Therfore you cannot say only certain churches are approved. It is the people who receive Holy Spirit, the worshipers themselves. This is obvious by many texts but Romans 8 is a good chapter to explain about how individuals can know they have the spirit.
Christ started Christianity, not a certain religious organization. Although they all claim to be the true one. And they try to manipulate the scriptures to prove it. Man is the one who started that. Christ did away with the old ways. That is why also that the Pharisees wanted Jesus dead. they knew his teachings will take away all their power over the masses. You dont need an organization any more, only a relationship WITH God, THRU Christ, and you are bound to them by HOLY SPIRIT.
Amazing, Just because Holy Spirit was active in Genesis does not mean it is a seperate person. It was God the bible says who created everything thru Christ. Therefore they USED Holy Spirit in this capacity. Just like they use it to influence the believer. By your line of thinking, would you say that the Holy Spirit alone was the creator? The Spirit is always under God or Jesus command. I won't go into how it is not a seperate person any more because I feel we will just be going around in circles. While I belive in the divinity of Christ, I have a different view of the Holy Spirit. By the way for any not sure Jesus was Divine like Jehovah, please read the whole book of John. The Apostle John gave ample texts to prove this.
Please dont send me anything about the churches you feel are the ones with Holy Spirit only, I belonged to some of them in the past and already proved in my mind that what they teach about them ONLY being approved is false. Take the Catholic one for instance. I looked up the so called proof that their church was built on Peter and believe this to be a misunderstanding of scripture. And I really dont care what the early Church Fathers said because of the fact that they are humans. I go by the word of Christ only. will respect your opinion though as to what church you belong to and hope you respect mine, not to join an official church. It simply is not needed. And there is no reason for me to address the matter because I don't feel it matters what church you support either as long as you have a personal relationship with Christ. If anyone has any more questions about this issue feel free to email me if you think I may be able to help. I can most likely point out a couple of texts to help but ultimately I am not here to convince anyone. You have to make up your own mind - [email protected] God bless, Lilly
Amazing, I was reluctant to post here due to the fact that my traumatic experience with the JWs has left me neither a Christian nor a Bible reader any longer.
I am seeking a living faith, one I can see and feel, not one from old dusty books.
Your question and the many long answers offered only confirm my growing skepticism.
Why does our faith and religion have to be so handed down and from old books and manuscripts?
Why do we have to quote old dead people from long ago to describe our faith today?
Why are all those people in the Bible authorities on God?
Everyone is trying to be the broker between us and God.
I am breaking completely from the known religions and creating my own....just me and God.
My temple is called the Church of Feeling Good and the Church of Joy and Happiness and the Church of Calm and Peace and the Church of Natural Reality. The temple where I worship is my own heart.
Dear anewme,
I understand how you feel. I felt the same way at one time. I don't think any of the old bible writers felt they were total authorities on God. They even recognized that others were God fearing. I think of JOB in the bible. He had nothing at all to do with the Isrealites who at the time were God's Holy Nation, yet Jehovah God said he had faith in God more than anyone else on the earth. There is no religion organization right now to bring us closer to God. Jesus can because he spoke the truth about God and his purposes. One day, this will be witnessed thru-out the whole earth. Many believe if they belong to a particular group they will fair better than everyone else. This simply is not true. If there is anything Christ did teach us is that true worship IS WITHIN believers. If you believe in God and live your life in a way that expresses that believe (like you said being happy, also doing good to others, etc) you are pleasing God. So you are doing the correct thing even though you dont realize it. This whole topic was about the Holy Spirit and the differences of belief. I still have a different belief than trinitarians. But I think thats o.k. I dont think it depends on our faith in God or whether or not he accepts us at all. It was only a mental exercise. Christ made us to be FREE. That is what you are, as I am too. I can attend any church I want, OR not attend and I am free to express love of God in my own way. The thing I take offense at is when people try to say you have to belong to a religion, Catholic, Protestant, Jehovahs Witness, etc. I have belonged to them all. In belonging you must accept THEIR interpretation of the bible. That is too narrow minded. Only after leaving all these did I finally understand Jesus saying "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free". When the day comes that Christ returns and removes all these religious institutions, God promises to write his laws and commands in all our hearts and we ALL shall worship in spririt and truth, the large and the small, slave and feeman, man and women". Until that day, you have to decide what you want to do. But never give up the freedom you have in your heart. Lilly
Dear Jim,
I was looking up these scriptures in the NIV and NAV.. They seem to give some insite as to what was different about the holy spirit that Jesus sent down and the prior.
John 15:26 NAV "When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me. And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning."
John 15:26 NIV "When the Counselor comes whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning."
Jim, the NIV seems more accurate here, when it says the spirit of God will testify about Jesus.. Maybe Jesus had input as to what was sent..
John 16:7 NIV "But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgement:"
John 16:7 NAV "But I tell you the truth, it is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.........."
Jim, this is the one about, the spirit not being able to come unless Jesus dies and sends him to the apostles.
John 16:12 NAV "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you."
John 16:13 NIV is the same here.
So, Jim, So it appears that the spirit is God's spirit, not a person, that speaks on his own. It also seems to say, the spirit can teach is a more effective way, than Jesus speaking to them verbally. The spirit seems to be God's spirit which was given to Jesus..to do with what I wants with.. What do you think of these scriptures????
Star Moore,
I dont know about Amazing. But I agree with you. If you look at pasts posts, I listed plenty of scriptures that says the spirit is actually God's Spirit. I think the texts you brought out were really good. The Spirit can teach well because it goes right to your heart and mind and helps you get better understanding. A lot of what Jesus taught the Apostles remembered AFTER he sent the spirit. So it can help you see how Jesus teachings are relevevent and it brought back what he said to them. But like you said, and that is my point also, it is not a third person of a trinity. We believers can possess it and will show the proper fruit (or qualties) if we do have it. (Galatians 5) It is God's Spirit of truth poured out to believers. Thanks for that post.
Hi Lil, Star, and Anewme,
All three of you have posted a lot of material, so I will start with one point that Lil made, and then later on, address more.
Lil, by mentioning the mainline churches, I did not intend to rule out individuals, or those in small branches of Protestantism. I call anything that is not Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox as Protestant. So, by this, I meant to be all inclusive, including good individuals.
However, I cannot imagine that the Holy Spirit is blessing cults, like the Jim Jones Peoples Temple, or David Koresh & The Branch Davidian, or even the Watchtower Society. I believe that he blesses and helps individuals within such drastic groups to come to their senses and leave those cults and unhealthy groups.
The Bible shows that God cannot exist divided, and I have to believe that in some cases, certain religions are too divided from truth to be of usefulness to the Holy Spirit. Christ himself had to pay a visit upon the 7 congregations in Revelation with warnings of drawing away from them if they did not change.
So, I am for the most part non-judgmental, and do not intend to exclude any person or group, except the most extreme ... and only in the sense that Christ so clearly and completely expressed
I hope that this helps. I will dig into the other issues later on.
Thanks, Jim Whitney
Hi Jim,
Thanks for clearing that up. It sounded like I was reading it wrong because from your other posts, you did not seem judgemental at all. I agree that not all who claim to have the Holy Spirit have it. And not all groups that claim to be doing Gods will are doing it. It reminds me of Matthew 7:21, here Jesus is telling us that not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter his kingdom. Even though they say that they performed powerful works in the Lords name and expelled demons in his name, Jesus calls them workers of lawlessness and says he never knew them. They may think they are accepted and working in Gods name but are really not.
And yes it is obvious by cults that they have no Holy Spirit. If they did they would be cultivating the fruitages of it; Love, Joy, Peace, Long suffering, Kindness, Mildness, hope, faith, etc. So they prove false to it. But I don't believe you have to be associated with any organized religion to recieve the spirit. You only have to be a true believer and follower of Christ. Case in point:
If you read Acts, you will see that Paul, after he converted to Christianity was moved by the spirit to begin a missionary work. He did not meet with ANY other Christians in Jeruselum until more than a decade later. (I believe it said 13 years) If they were the "established church" at that time, why did he not have to immediately join them for the Holy Spirit to work in him? He also did not have to check in with them about what he was doing. Jesus gave him Holy Spirit to tell him what to do. Paul is a great example of being filled with the spirit thru out his life and ministry. He went where the spirit of God directed him and did not affiliate with any group. He even helped small home churches start up and was there if they needed help understanding the basics of Christianity, but he was never a master over their faith. But our modern idea of a church is much different than in the bible. The church or ecclesia is the people, not the building. All christians are joined together by the Holy Spirit. (we are the living church, Christs body) I am not speaking about those claiming to have the Spirit, I mean those who prove true to having it. Our job as Christian ministers or witnesses is to bring people to Christ and the truth of his word and thats it. If they are true believers, the Holy Spirit will take over from there. They will continue to learn and grow as a Christian and spread the word. I am not against getting together for prayer, study and fellowship. I did that yesterday having to drive almost 2 hours away to find like minded believers. (2 hrs. each way). I am just against any religion saying only they have the truth or that you have to accept their doctrines to be accepted by Christ or God. That is what promoting a sect truly is. There is no biblical evidence of anyone being called Catholic, Protestant or Jehovahs Witness, nor any other name rather than simply Christians. (I am not condeming any that want to be affilliated with such a group, just saying it is unnecessary.)
Hi amazing and Lil: I really liked both of your points about the holy spirit and religion. I have been out since Sept.. and have visited a church anymore but I'm not going to attend .. I don't need to. The doctrines confuse me.. I may change my mind. But I am meeting in homes, mine and theirs, and studying. This is good for me. Amazing: I think you are right about the cults, impead Jeh's holy spirit from being there. That's why the WT hasn't had any new light since Russell...sure new rules and corrections..but not new light. Good evening to you both.
