Short Survey for Non-Trinitarians

by Amazing1914 56 Replies latest jw friends

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  Narkissos

  I am not looking at Church history from the viewpoint of Eusebius, but rather my own readings of most of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers over the last 18 months.

  I only meant that your presentation of the struggle between "orthodoxy" and "heresies" coincides with that of Eusebius, not that you had taken it from him.

  My observation is that they fought all sorts of heresies, but never did they fight a heresey that was in any way promoting anything similar to trinitarism.

  Sure, but when Church Fathers such a Justin Martyr presented Jesus a second and lesser God, distinct from the all-powerful God, they were not exactly agreeing with later Trinitarian definitions either. Of course they didn't fight them as they didn't yet exist.

  The Trinity is the result of all those years of fighting every other heresy.

  True, except in my case I am not reading back into earlier works. I am observing something quite contrary to Watchtower theology, which would have us believe that fiathful little early Bible students were fighting against the Trinity until they were overwhelmed by evil apostates, and that Arius was the last of the faithful little flock. Instead, there is nothing remotely supporting anti-trinitarism or anything resembling Watchtower theology. Further, the early Church fathers fought ideas that later could be called anti-trinitarian.

  Agreed.

  I read the entire article, and nothing in it suggest any such fabrication. ; It instead strongly supports Catholic theology. ; Given that I have read all of Ignatius' autheniticated letters, I have found in them enough reference to support his views of Mary. ; And to date, nothing has been found which questions the credibility of Mary's letter back to Ignatius.

  Perhaps you missed the following paragraph:

  There is evidence that some fragments of the martyr's remains were taken to Antioch and venerated. St. Jerome, visiting Antioch nearly three hundred years later, tells us that these remains had been placed "in a cemetery outside the Daphne gate." It is believed that they were brought back to Rome in 637 to rest in the church of San Clemente. From the ancient Syrian martyrology we learn that the martyr's feast was kept in the East on October 17. St. John Chrysostom,[5] bishop of Constantinople in the fourth century, preached a famous panegyric on Ignatius, but even then legend was beginning to play its part; he supposes that Ignatius was appointed to the see of Antioch by the Apostle Peter himself. Later a whole correspondence was fabricated, including letters purporting to have passed between Ignatius and the Blessed Virgin Mary, while she still dwelt on earth, after the Ascension of Jesus.

  (Btw I think Greendawn was referring to Revelation 3:2,12, and perhaps also John 20:17.)
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  greendawn

  "Jesus, as taught in Trinitarian thought, willingly subordinates himself to the Father"
  
  It is such ideas that mystify me about the Trinitarian formulation, on the one hand the Son is equal to and coeternal with the Father and on the other hand he subordinates himself to him. Isn't this a logical contradiction? Or is it the trinitarians wanting to have things both ways so that they can always be right?
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  Amazing1914

  Narkissos,

  Thanks for the clarifications. However, the only item I have to totally disagree with is that the letter from Ignatius to mary is authenticated.

  Greendawn,

  It is such ideas that mystify me about the Trinitarian formulation, on the one hand the Son is equal to and coeternal with the Father and on the other hand he subordinates himself to him. Isn't this a logical contradiction? Or is it the trinitarians wanting to have things both ways so that they can always be right?

  In human terms, let's say that I go to work for an employer. I am in every way fully human, fully sharing in humanity, and in every sense I have the same equal rights and duties of my employer. However, if I choose to work for him, I subordinate myself to him voluntarily. I can quit at any time I choose.

  Or on a more intimate level, a husband and wife are c-equal in the marriage. However, the wife or husband may choose to subordinate one to the other, either in some matters as finances, or in all family matters. Such subordination does not in any way lessen their claims to equality.

  I don't know if you read my earlier comments before you joined in, but I do nt necessarily support the current Trinity definition. I simply believe that Jesus is God, the Father is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, or that they are equally part of Divinity, as humans are humanity. Yet there is only one Divinity or God, just as there is only one humanity, though there are billions of humans.

  Jim Whitney
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  lovelylil

  Amazing and Narkissos,

  You both make really good arguements as to the issue about the trinity. It has been very interesting getting into this discussion with you both. I enjoy friendly little debates as long as we do not put anyone down for there beliefs. You will find some who are ex JWs or belonging to any other religion that THINK they understand the other persons belief but do not really. Then they will tell you that you are wrong and dont even know what you really believe.

  Case in point, we learned by the WT that triniarians believe in a three headed freakish God and that to believe that Christ is in some way on the same level as Jehovah is blasphemy. Upon extensive research of over a year I have proved to my satisfaction that the WT is wrong about what the trintiy doctrine is. Mind you I am not a trinitarian but if you are going to try to disprove something, you should at least understand what the belief is. The brochure "should you believe in the Trinity" is a one sided, biased piece of trash.

  I do believe that Christ is and was always Divine in Nature, not in position. (see more below) .The WT mistranslates the scripture in Colossians 1:15 in their bible stating that Jesus is the image of God, the firstborn OF all creation". This is to try and say he was the first of Jehovahs creations which is false. This is false because I have looked at the original Greek, in the WTs own Greek Interlinear Translation and it states in the original language that Christ is the firstborn OVER all creation. Also I studied the word used for Firstborn and it does not mean first created. It means that Christ Jesus had certain rights in relation to all creation including priority, pre-eminence and sovereignty. See Colossians 1:16-18. This belief is supported by scripture. And it makes sense because it was by Christ that everything was created in heaven and earth. Although in the OT it says Jehovah laid the earth alone, this is not wrong to say Christ actually did it. Because he as the Son is his fathers heir and the agent thru which everything was done. Think of this: if a builder hires workers to build a building for him, does he not then say HE built it?

  Also, the apostles prayed to and worshiped Jesus before and after his resurrection. The bible calls him our mediator and intercessor on our behalf. How can he have this position if we do not pray to him and tell him what we need? Now if the bible says we should only pray to the one God Jehovah and no one else, and Jesus is not Divine and equal in nature to Jehovah, why was this allowed? And Christ himself did not correct the Pharisees when they said he "blasphemed against God" How, by saying he was God's Son thus they said he made himself equal to God. How can saying you are Gods son make you equal to him? Because it means you are in nature equal to him, not in position. Yes the son submits to the father just as a human son would submit to his father but they will both still be equal in nature as they are both humans but the father is higher in position than the son.

  I think by reading the New Testament it becomes very clear who Christ was. And that he was equal in nature to Jehovah. John did say he was God but he did not mean Jehovah he meant God in the sense of being the Son. Which to John, would have been the same. Because how many divine beings would he have seen, divine in nature? Only Jesus because no man has seen God at any time, the bible says. My point with John 1:1 is that the WT is wrong to say Jesus is "a" lesser god by not God. It is self explanatory if you read the whole chapter. It is hard to put in our terms words that describe the divine nature. Even the apostles had to use terms we could understand. But really, only Christ can truly know the father in a way we cannot. Not in the human relm at this time. But it is important to look at the bible as a whole and every scripture. Why did John say Jesus WAS GOD, if he meant was A God? Who are WE to add a word in when the Apostle John was hand picked by Christ himself and filled with Holy Spirit? If this verse was a mistake and the one where the Pharisees said Jesus was equal to God, and Jesus did not correct them, why would God allow them written in error? The man (Apostle John) had to know what he was talking about but we thousands of years later want to say he was wrong. He was not wrong.

  As far as the Holy Spirit - The WT I believe is correct that it is a type of force, but it is even much more than that. They downgrade this too by comparing it to electricity. The Holy Spirit is personafied but this does not mean it is some type of person or entity with a mind of its own. We know many of Gods qualities are spoken of in human terms, sometimes Male, sometimes in the female gender. And they are personified and said to speak, leap, jump, teach, etc. But we do not take those verses to be literal or we would think Gods wisdom, justice and prudence where people too. We know God uses Holy Spirit (which we cannot see and Jesus compared to wind) to move peoples hearts and minds, to heal and accomplish his will. And it was used in creation. God and Christ dwell in true believers just like the bible promises, this is accomplished with Holy Spirit. I know personally because I have this experience and I know many others who do. In Galatians chapter 5 it says what the fruits of the spirit are. In other words the traits to look for to know someone has Holy Spirit. But who pours it out? It does not fill us on its own either Jehovah or Jesus must pour it upon us. Therefore, whatever you want to liken it to, they BOTH possess it and can pour it out.

  Anyway, boy that is a lot to write. I just wanted to clear up some of my views. Narkissos, you make very good reasoning on the Holy Spirit and explaining better what people believe it to be. Amazing - you also make great points. I did not think you were trying to convert me, I simply thought you were looking to see how people felt about the Trinity since leaving the JWs in the interest in seeing how they have changed. I for one have changed because I feel Christ is divine in nature and not created although I still am not a trinitarian. But I do believe in Holy Spirit, just not in the same way as trinitarians. But Amazing raised a great point which is that many do not even know what they believe let alone be able to defend it properly. I saw this many times in the WT org. Once I went to the door and the lady told me and another sister that we did not believe in Jesus Christ. Well, the other sister tried to pull out the reasoning book to prove we do. I told her to put it away and then began to defend my faith. I am pretty good at it, I left my original religion (Roman Catholic) at age 12 and had to stand up to my whole family. Then I had to defend the Witneses faith. Now, I did not believe in everything and as time went on, I realized that much of it I could not defend scriptually so I left. The last few years I have studied more than ever. And I am still learning my new found faith. I think it is important to listen to others views and diligently study your views so that you can explain it. If you cannot explain it, how do you know you really believe in it?

  So thanks you two for this great mental exercise. If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask.Lilly
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  Amazing1914

  Hi Lovelylil,

  Excellent commens, thanks. You noted, "The Holy Spirit is personafied but this does not mean it is some type of person or entity with a mind of its own."

  My talk at BRCI is titled, "What is the Nature of the Holy Spirit?" The personification style is claims by the Watchtower, and they were good at invoking it whenever they could not explain acts of a person. However, as my talk and paper will show, it is doubtful that all Christian Bible writers and early Church Fathers, with all their varying writing styles over a hundred and fifty years would have employed this same style all of a sudden.

  When I get close to completing my paper, I will get it posted so you can see just how the Holy Spirit can possibly be a person. Either way, as I state in my paper, belief in God's exact nature, whether triune, dual, or mono is not a salvation issue, quite simply because it was never made such an issue. But the Trinity seems to fit best what the early Christians believed.

  Notwithstanding my points, I truly appreciate many of the points youmake on Christ's diety. Also, in harmony with your comments on Colossians, the Society has to add the word [other] in brackets in Col. 1, because otherwise the text says that Jesus created ALL things. Also, the Society employs Rev. 3:14 to say that Jesus is firstborn of all creation. But, like you point out in Colossians, the original Greek says that Jesus is the chief over all creation.

  Thanks, Jim Whitney
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  lovelylil

  Amazing,

  thanks I forgot about the word other being added. Glad you pointed that out. I would love to read your paper, you have my email so feel free to send it along. I started reading the Bio. you emailed me earlier and you are a very good writer. Your story flows so nicely. I see a lot of what I went thru in your story. Especially about trying to decide what to do with your family in the WT. I was able to win the kids over much sooner than my hubby. He was ex military and learned from a young age to be LOYAL to an organization.

  About the personification; I dont think the WT got everything wrong. And they are not the only religion that is non trinitarian or that feels that the Holy Spirit is not a person. Their big mistake is not understanding the divine nature of Christ. The personifying of some of Gods qualties started way back in the OT. The bible writers used it to give life to Gods qualities because he is the Living God. What better way to explain his attributes than by making them more than one dimentional. Remember too that they were under inspiration so they were really writing Gods thoughts and not theirs. God knows how to have his qualities conveyed to men don't you think? Also, Jesus was the one who called the Holy Spirit a HE and a HELPER first in the NT. So he would understand the nature of the Holy Spirit better than anyone. The Diciples did not know what it was until it was poured out at Pentecost. Remember that the actual NT was not written until a few decades after the fact and by then they HAD Holy Spirit which would have helped them choose their words to properly understand this term. Plus they could understand it by personal experience. I know I have Holy Spirit, (please don't think I am bragging) yet it is something I cannot see or touch but I can feel it within. It helps give me peace, love, joy, long suffering, etc. It makes me feel closer to Jesus and our heavenly father. No one has ever said they have seen Holy spirit. As a matter of fact, when Jesus was baptized the father sent Holy Spirit down in the "form of a Dove" the bible says. This no doubt was for John the Baptist benefit to see that Jesus was the Messiah. God also spoke to confirm it. But the physical aspect of seeing the Holy Spirit had to be shown to John so that he could fully understand what took place. Also the bible says that God's spirit "testifies" with your spirit that you are sons of God. A great chapter to read that explains what the Holy Spirit is really the Spirit of God is Romans chapter 8.

  I agree with you it does have power to accomplish Gods purposes. Therefore I reject the like electricity explanation. It is much more because it is, I would even venture to say "living" for lack of a better word. Because it Lives in all true believers. The Holy Spirit can teach because I have prayed for it, and once I recieved it, I have learned more in a short span of 2 years than I have in almost 25 years of searching for bible knowledge. I cannot see it, but I have the effects of it. The Holy Spirit is really the part of the Trinity doctrine that is the most difficult, yet most interesting to debate on I think. I will wait to add more of my opinions until AFTER I read your paper. I will be away tomarrow visiting some friends for the day. Will be back next day Monday. Good night! Lilly
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  Star Moore

  I have a different idea..lately,

  The holy spirit, could only come down after Jesus died; is what he said. So the holy spirit must be a combination of God's and Jesus' spirit...
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  lovelylil

  Hi Star Moore,

  Good point about the Holy Spirit. I believe Christ always had Holy Spirit but you are right that it was not poured out on his diciples until Pentacost which was after Jesus Resurrection. This was what John the Baptist alluded to when he said the one coming after him would baptize with Holy Spirit and not water like he. That did not happen until later like you said. I think maybe the spirit is what binds Jehovah and Jesus together as well as all believers. It is poured out on believers and we can see evidence of it in our lives. What is interesting at Pentacost is that the people saw flames above their heads and heard sounds like rushing wind. This was physical evidence that Holy Spirit existed. If they only spoke in tongues they may not not have realized that God gave them the power. But because they "saw" the evidence of it they knew it was from God. Remember Jesus told them to wait for it. This is an interesting subject and one I am going to study further in the future. I agree though with those who will say the Holy Spirit was always part of God. I just don't think you can call it "God" or third person of Trinity.
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  Amazing1914

  Hi Star,

  The Bible says in Genesis that the Holy Spirit moved about the earth during creation. The Holy Spirit was known to be active among the Jews. they most often referred to him as God's Spirit, or the Spirit. We see a continuation of this in the New Testament. However, in John 14:25-26, Jesus said that the Holy Spirit wuld come after him, and that He (the Holy Spirit) would teach, lead, guide, and comfort, and bring back to the minds of Christians all the things that Jesus taught them. The Holy Spirit has control of the Christian Church today. I believe that these include Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and most Protestant maimline Churches.

  Jim Whitney
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  Kristofer

  interesting posts